Well I'm not drunk right this second but if I was, phew, I assure you that I'd be quite the boob.
Seriously though I'm thinking of taking another stab at the old non-drinking. It's probably a complete waste of time since I usually only last until payday but I figure since I lost my job and I drank all the booze, vanilla extract and maraschino cherry juice in my home that now may be just the right time. Even though the thought of sucking the alcohol out of my girlfriends Olay facial cleansing pads is starting to look mighty appealing I think I'm going to give AA and sobriety one more chance to woo me.
I am also glad to hear from you, Tipsy!! Losing a lot of things in my life, jobs, etc, was actually a really good place to be for this alkie to get sober. Don't beat yourself up. Not many of us alcoholics still had the job, the house on the hill and the 3 car garage, and said, "Gee, I think I'll get sober today...."
All the best for you, and I'm rooting for you!! what I see is not a boob or a twit, but a beautiful, vulnerable person, simply with a problem, who needs help..... just like me....
Before AA really started to work for me, I relapsed more times than I can of. But, I never let go of my dream of being sober. I just got along to as many AA meetings as I could until my head and heart followed me.
Many, many of us have been just where you are now. We are all here for you. I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
Please post again and let us know how it is going for you, won't you?
Take good care of yourself,
Carol
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Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
Getting sober often seemed like a pretty good idea. While I was drinking. Then, if I ran out, wasnt such a helluva idea anymore. But the way I see it, I was drinking my way to the first step. So technically, I have been doing stepwork my whole life... heheheh
You may find there are more people in AA that think like you, than you currently believe there are (#1 if you give it that chance, and #2 if you make the effort to find them). It's called a support group, but, while we all have a lot in common, we are not all exactly alike.
I know you have stated many times that you have great difficulty with the spiritual aspects of AA, and particularly, the "God" thing. I don't know what access you have to AA groups (either in number of meetings available per day/week, or in number of attendees), but, if you are flat out honest about your feelings on the topic, you may find someone who will still be a sponsor, or at least, a common friend in recovery, who can share a cup of coffee or a phone call with you and talk through the alcohol madness when it comes, without trying to convert you to their religious persuasion. In fact, you may find that they share your feelings. Granted, there may be some who will think that they have to come up to you banging their tambourine or their Bible (or Torah, or whatever), but you only have to tell them politely "Thanks but no thanks", if it is not for you. If they continue to pester you after that, they (not you) are in the wrong meeting, and need to be reminded that AA meetings are for alcoholics in recovery. If any alcoholic wants to have the remotest hope of recovery, they absolutely must learn to "live and let live".
I personally have been an agnostic for about 35 years. I might be persuaded these days toward Taoism or Zen, if I were to accept any organized 'religious' thought (although with Zen that is contradictory). I dont have a problem with AA'ers who are devoutly religious(in whatever faith they may be), and who express their faith openly. I won't challenge their belief, because it is just that; their belief. It is theirs. It belongs to them. They have a right to do whatever they want with what belongs to them. I respect their right, and only expect that they respect mine in return. "LIVE AND LET LIVE".
I believe I recall from your past postings, that you have expressed yourself to be unflinchingly, unbendingly athiest. I'm fine with that. I'm not here to help you become a Zionist, Hari Krishna, or "Born Again" Christian, only to help you when you want someone to help you to fight that urge to swill the poison until it ruins your life, and your health.
Am I getting through to you yet, Duane old buddy? OK, so, now, here we go again, one more time. When you get to those parts in the steps that stick in your throat (any that reference a Power greater than yourself, or "God"), you don't even have to ask any of our permission to change those to suit you. The power greater than yourself only has to be any AA support group which you find yourself to be comfortable with. "GOD" can stand for "Group Of Drunks", Good Orderly Direction", or anything else you wish to call it. And, if they say the "Serenity Prayer" at the end of the meeting, you can wait a second while they all say "God..." while quietly thinking to yourself, "May what I learn from AA..." then chime in with "grant me the serenity, etc., etc."
You may just find a couple of other athiests (or at least agnostics) who have found a way to make the program work for them, but you will have to accept their help. That is the 10 million dollar question--have you truly finally found the bottom point from which you are ready to try to make this program work by accepting that help? Or, is your pride still going to take you for a few more drunken, embarrasing, shaming, health damaging, socially damaging, personal relationship damaging rides?
when i was new in the program it drove me crazy how the old timers knew everytime i relasped. just by looking at me they knew! so this one old guy says "so, cindy, haven't suffered enough yet?" i didn't mean to keep getting drunk, it was embarrassing more than usual cause i was attending meetings on a regular basis. i asked him what he recommended [only i did'nt say it nice]. he told me to get the book CAME TO BELIEVE available at meetings, alano clubs ect. i did not believe in god and hated all the talk of that kind at the meetings. so i read this book and yeah it opened my mind just a bit, [cement head]. i haven't had to drink since. honesty...openmindedness...willingness.just for today.
Hating religion and the thought of "god" is something I feel strongly about. I look at the blood soaked, witch burning, child diddling history of organised religion and it sickens me to my core. And who I detest the most is the western christian right as I believe them to be the most vile, evil perpetrators of hate, intolerance, pain, suffering and global instability. I wont debate you on why or if I'm right or wrong, I know what I believe and why I believe it and that's where the discussion ends.
This makes it somewhat difficult for me to sit in meetings with these people and hold their hand while saying a prayer. It makes the AA rhetoric difficult for me to accept...I see these people with something that I want, sobriety, but I cant get it through the path they did so I try to skirt around it. Obviously I haven't been very successful.
Often I've left a meeting where the focus has been on "higher power" and I tell myself that if being one of those people is what it takes to be sober than I dont want it badly enough...and maybe I dont.
I read a interesting quote the other day that I haven't been able to get out of my head. I'm not certain who said but it went something like "profound atheism is the final step preceding true belief"...well if that's the case I'm on the edge of something big and perhaps I need a shove.
I do appreciate all of your kind words. I may hate god but I still like people...most of them anyway.
I had some horrible experiences with a 'religious world' when I was young. Many of us did. I will be the LAST person on this earth to buy into any hell-fire and brimstone philosophies.
Someone in AA who was very progressive-minded once mentioned an exercise. It was 'write down all the qualities you view as positive and flawless and good... qualities that you would find in the ideal friend, if there was such a thing". Then make those QUALITIES a Power Greater than Yourself. Don't pray to a "God with those qualities", so to speak, just acknowledge the QUALITIES THEMSELVES, the Energy of them, if you will, as indeed being a Power Greater than yourself.
We are looking for a power source here, not a human being, an etherial being, or a philosophy of any kind. Just a personal power source to rely on. We have simply been plugging into power sources that are faulty... willpower, relationships with other flawed individuals, alcohol, and the like. Many in AA share this idea.... we just have to actively seek them out sometimes.
That does make some sense to me...believe it or not I do have some strong spiritual beliefs, I just choose to call myself an atheist in defiance of religious people and everything they stand for...I considered "satanist" but it seemed a little extreme and probably wouldn't go over well at dinner parties
I almost launched in to one of my long soapbox dissertations, then caught myself, as I don't want to change this board from it's #1 purpose of support in recovery for any one who comes here. I saved all my philosophising, and am willing to share that in private messaging if you want to read "Dan's Theory of Religion".
There are a lot of self-professed "Christians" out there that I have seen in the news or that I know personally, who I refer to as "hypocritstians". Doesn't make all of them like that. I'll still choose to accept each person as I get to know them on an individual basis (makes it a heck of a lot easier on them, and, even more so, a lot easier on me).
As I said earlier, I am an agnostic (a strong believer in Maybe), not an atheist, but if I didn't believe in "God" at all, I sure couldn't blame the acts of people on something that doesn't exist.
Regardless of all this debate, it still comes down to whether or not you are willing to accept the help of other atheist (or at least non-religious) AA'ers when you find them (as I believe you will, if you continue to look for them) who have figured out a way to use this program to stay sober.
Sorry for coming so close to my soapbox anyway, but believe me, what I originally wrote and then cut would have put several audiences to sleep!
PS. I posted this before I saw Joni's latest post. Doggonit Joni, here I spend all this time trying to come up with an answer that can help Tipsy work around this "block" in his path, and here you come up with something that beats the pants right off'n what I was trying to say!
-- Edited by Sick of being sick at 17:44, 2006-10-08
Yep, Joni. Takes me back to my "Bohemian" college days. I loved debating about religion and "The Meaning of Life" (wow...like, heavy man!). Problem was, we always had to sit around with a few bottles of wine while we debated. I just gotta find a group I can do that with over coffee these days.
If I do have a higher power I imagine him to be like my grade 9 gym teacher...always making me do painful things that supposedly "build character" and kicking me in the ass whenever I would slack off.
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(wow...like, heavy man!). Problem was, we always had to sit around with a few bottles of wine while we debated. I just gotta find a group I can do that with over coffee these days.