But im very interestd to know if there is anyone in these rooms who has worked the program and is still an atheist..
Iv now read WE AGNOSTICS in the Big Book.. And im totaly dissapointed (an understatement!). So im wondering if there are any Atheists who have found AA successful and managed to work AA around their beliefs..
While it does not apply to me, a dear friend in the program has remained an atheist and sober for over 20 years now. He uses the program/fellowship of AA as his higher power.
This is really difficult for me. I don't know what I beleive, but I have a difficult time with God, and even though AA says it doesn't have to be God as your higher power, There sure is a lot of mention of Him, and all the meeting prayer and stuff. It really stands in my way. Or, I guess I let it stand in my way. I just can't stand it. Using the group is a good idea. It's just hard to implement.
I just wanted to add a little bit more to my previous post. When it came time for me to work the 3rd step for the first time, I didn't know where I stood with believing in God, or more, what my understanding of God might be. So my sponsor asked me simply, "Karen, do you believe that the folks in AA have found a way to sobriety and living that works?" I said yes. He then asked, "Karen, are you willing to stop doing things Karen's way and start doing them the AA way and start working these steps?" I said yes, and he said, "Congratulations, you've just made a decision to trust a power greater than yourself. Let's get into action!"
I do not disrespect anyone beliefs.. well so long as it doesnt encourage violence and terrorism..
But my beliefs are VERY STRONG.. My beliefs do not come out of rebellion.. Infact they do not come out of emotion what so ever.. I put emotion and desire as ide when thinking about this sort of thing.. Desire, love, hate, resentment, need, want etc etc etc. are totaly absent from my mind when thinking about such things..
I totaly accept anyone elses beliefs.. I mean believe what you bleve if it makes you happy and gives you what you need.
I dont say that MY beliefs are right and yours are wrong.. i do bleve that mine are right. but i wont say that mine are right..
Anway my beliefe are very strong and i dont believe any religous person has anything to say to change my mind.. Im open minded and will listen but i dont bleve i will change my mind.. It has taken years and i am happy with what i bleve..
Its just reading WE AGNOSTICS.. really took the wind out of my sails.. I expected it to offer some different phsychological perspectives/ideas to try from an Atheist/agnostics point of view.. But its nothing of the sort. It basicaly says "dont worry if you dotn bleve in god, we didnt all bleve it.. but you will bleve it.. cos its the truth and the only way".. And its assumptions as to how an atheist thinks was.. well .. in relation to me.. it was incredibly inaccurate...
So at the mo i cant help but think.. How the hell can AA help me if it needs me to bleve in god.. Cos that is NOT gona happen..... Some things just cant be rewound.
Rob - I feel the same way. It makes me feel like the one and only program out there that can help me, discriminates against me. Make sense?
Absolultely 100%
You hit the nail on the head..
I guess thats precisely what i was thinking today.. Its like.. "ok what the hell do i do now.. where can i go now if these people need me to be like this to help me"....
People are quick to say, "Use something else as your higher power." But they are totally missing the point. The very idea of a "Higher Power" whether it be God or a bowl of ice cream is not with us. It makes it very difficult.
Again more...AA is not asking that you believe in a higher power in terms of an ethereal being or some greater something in the cosmos. It's just suggesting that in terms of alcohol, we need to find something that has more power than we do. The fellowship of AA does seem to have that. When drinking, alcohol was a power greater than we were - we could not beat it, not with will power, not with all the wanting to, not on our own. We did not have that power. Alcohol had it. So...now we need to find a power that is also greater than us when it comes to the battle between alcoholic and alcohol.
But for Christian people, the link between self and God can be a strong enough power to be more than alcohol. If you don't have that kind of spirituality, it makes it very difficult to understand or grasp the concept. We are not trying to be stubborn or sarcastic, or stupid. But it's as difficult for us to get this as it is for most people to think of the meaning of life. It's huge and confusing.
I didn't come into AA with any spiritual beliefs what so ever. What I did know was that my desire to NOT drink became stronger than my desire TO drink---so I put my faith in my desire to be sober. That desire to stay sober was made stronger during my relationship with AA. As a practicing alcoholic I allowed Fear to be stronger than me, so it made sense, at the beginning, to allow my Desire for sobriety to be stronger than my conscious self. Does that help make sense? hugs, Wren
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Funny, isn't it, how friends and a Power greater than ourselves can neutralize nightmares?
I guess it comes down to, do you believe that the good folks of AA have found a way to stay sober and enjoy life? That up until this point you have been unable to do on your own? If so, then you already believe in a power greater than yourself, because you believe that someone else (or more than someone else) has done something you yourself have not been able to do thus far. And if it's in reference to taking the 3rd step, making a decision to turn your will and life over to the care of God as you understand him, (insert, whatever power that's greater than you that you can comprehend at this time), if you decide that your way has not worked so far and that you are willing to try it by working the steps that AA suggests, then you have just made a decision to turn your will (what you had wanted to do up to this point) over to the care of the program of AA.
Everything makes good sense. And I really appreciate all of the posts. And where I can't speak for Rob, all of the comments that make sense still frustrate and confuse. Maybe our minds just don't work the same way. But I have heard many good suggestions here and through my people at rehab, including the comments that aren't so good. Like, "If you really wanted to be sober, you would find a higher power no matter what or who it was." If it has to be something that is stronger then the alcohol, then it has to be something really powerful or big, and it just seems more obvious or easier in a way to people that have spirituality in their lives. "Higher Power" means nothing to me, so it leaves me feeling hopeless. Like I wrote before, it doesn't matter if it's God or a bowl of ice cream.
Do I "believe that the good folks of AA have found a way to stay sober and enjoy life?" and "If so, then you already believe in a power greater than yourself." Well, no, I don't know much about the folks at AA, because the whole Higher Power things turns me off, freaks me out, and confuses me. So I wouldn't already believe in a power greater than myself. I don't think that I am the highest power, or anything like that, but I don't think anyone or anything else is, either. I'm trying to see it through your suggestions, but I honestly don't feel like you are trying to see the utter confusion this can heap on a non-spiritual person. Still, thank you for your suggestions.
Took the post out, this Response was ONLY meant for anyone that is here debating anything, while DRUNK. It was not intended for anyone else, But have to say, I just give up today.
Seems like i offended others, sorry for that, so I am just going to take a break, and go do some gardening. PEACE..... TO ALL.
I'm sorry, I guess I was too busy trying to make a point rather than listening. When it comes to believing or not believing in anything that may have a bit more power/strength than we do, that's a step or 2 into things. The 1st step says simply we admit that we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable. It's not until the 2nd step that any greater power is mentioned, and that's only on coming to believe - we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. It's a process, I believe, even coming to a point that we believe even AA has more power than I do when it comes to alcohol.
But for now, don't drink, go to meetings and pick up the phone is pretty good stuff for staying around the 1st step. Also, there is a piece of literature called "Came to Believe" that I believe deals with all sorts of beliefs or non-beliefs as the case may be. It might be worth perusing through.
I don't know if Toni's comment that said "come back when you have not been drinking" was meant at all for me or just Rob. If it in any way was meant to be for me as well, I must tell you that I have been to meetings, I am currently in an outpatient rehab treatment, and I have completed step one. It's step two that is blocking my way through the program, which is why when I saw this thread, I thought it would be good for me to ask questions and communicate with others who either had answers or knew how I felt. This was the first thread I ever joined on any chat on the internet, and I have to say, I find it ridiculous that anyone here would assume that someone has been drinking all day, and to tell them to come back when they haven't been. You talk about not knowing, well you're right there. Apparently you haven't heard the old adage about what happens when we assume. Telling someone in the depths of this disease that they are disruptive is callous beyond belief. Especially from another alcoholic who knows what it's like to be desperately searching for an answer to this hideous way of life.
As for kspear, thank you for all of your replies, you are obviouosly a good soul. Thanks also for the idea of the literature. I try to read everything I can about this disease and on anything that might help me.
ok hey everybody I just want to make somthing clear (1) an agonosic questions the belief of God (2) an atheist believes there is no God or devil. In the B/B it explains in the chapter to the agnostic that there are 3 things tht would work as our higher power, God, A God, or the group. It also tells me that I can find this power deep within myself pg 55 3rd paragraph 4th line. If you think about it alcohol/drugs for a long time were once a higher power a higher power is simply something greater than your self.And also I had faith in the "dope man" so my early beliefs were tarnished. So if you are questioing plz read pages 44-63 they are very informitive. One thing I have learned is that when you use a human being as your higher power, they will always let u down and a door knob cannot be a higher power, it is an intamite(dont know if that spelled right) object it is not loving, caring and greater than your self. Buddhisim Rob whne I first learned about it in my college relegion class fasinates me, it is merely a phyloispy to life a person can be a buddhist and still pratice there belief. Thanx for lettin me share I hope that I have not offened anyone here that was not my goal. I respect whatever some else has as a concept of a higher power. Also read very carefully what Toni said.
Some people use Love as their Higher Power,,, and that works for me,,, depending on the definition of Love that we are using. That was why I had a great interest in the thread we did about love and what it is. I do believe in the power of Love. And I didn't believe in Love before I came into the 12 Step program. But I have found this kind of Love to be, indeed, what makes the world go round, and what conquers all. I believe now, and didn't before,, that God is Love... that is part of my current understanding, but the thing is to be open to learning and growing and changing. Do we still understand things the same way today that we did when we were 15? If so we have not been learning or growing and need to.
love in recovery,
amanda
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do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
When I first got into the program I didn't believe in God and I hated the talk about it. I hated God....period. Higher power is only something greater than me. The only God in my life prior to getting sober was the next drink and of course money. They were all powerful.....right? Anything that can dictate the way I live is a power greater than I. Refusal to work the steps because it forces you to believe in something you don't is a copout. Look at all the rich people in life that can't find happiness. Money is no God. G.O.D. --group of drunks---good orderly direction. When someone speaks of God how hard is it to just think of these two sayings. AA as a whole is a hell of alot more powerful than I am. If I didn't hear what I hear at meetings from other alcoholics I would not be sober. In AA people are free to talk about whatever they want. If they want to talk about God that's their deal. If you are truly openminded you should be able to respect peoples beliefs and not feel that you should have to believe as they do. I hear at meetings all the time.....take what you can use and leave the rest.
The best way to get answers to these questions is to talk about them, on here, at meetings, and definitely with your sponsor. The sponsors only real job is to guide you through the steps, not forcing their belief system upon you. A good friend of mine is an atheist at the meetings, that's his deal and I respect him just the same. AA only asks that you believe in something more powerful than yourself. If you don't think that a whole group of people that have learned to live without the alcohol knows more than you do, think twice. My higher power is definitely AA as a whole along with my God. And when I say my God, that can be whatever I choose it to be.
If you can't find a healthy higher power to believe in there are always the negative alternatives. I have found a way of life through AA and so can anyone else that wants it bad enough and is willing to work the steps and go to meetings. I personally don't care what anyones higher power is, I know who mine is.
Hey Rob; You can believe whatever you want, it's okay. But I have to ask you a question. Are you trying to find a reason that this program won't work for you? (this won't work for me because I don't believe in a higher power?) I believe in the Cowboy way, my Bible called "Don't Squat With Yer Spurs On! written by Texas Bix Bender. It contains pearls of wisdom such as. Never take to sawin' the branch that's supportin' you, unless you're being hung from it. and, If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin'. and Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day. Recovery works but it is work and hard and painful work at that. Good luck. Bob.
-- Edited by cooncatbob at 20:07, 2006-05-10
-- Edited by cooncatbob at 20:08, 2006-05-10
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Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like no one is watching.
i had a hard time with the "god thing" too...in fact i STILL cannot grasp a "father--god--masculine" power....to me?? its within me....
when i first got here it was the 12steps program...my HP was the program/ steps, etc....i worked around the "god stuff" than i began to see *something* happen WITHIN me....
as far as i am concerned god/jesus are corporate--busy w/ the corporate scheme of things.....i pray to whatever part of the source that is within me....that to me, connects me to the universe...
the universal creator to me has no gender..i call he/she/it the SOURCE of all things good
i know there is something higher than me, but can't understand it for s***....i just say "ok, this is over my head" i am a spiritual being, i know that, and i know that my HP is within me and becuz of the abuse i suffered i suffered a disconnection from myself AND as a result a connection with any Higher self.....
AS i REconnect to me, i am finding my Higher SELF, which i prefer to call my HP.....
i was horrifically abused by a male, authority figure who exerted his evil will on his family..my father...he was evil to the core and he preached the "God will punish u" crap, and god this and god that and he was a child predator.....i had to "yield" to him or be punished.....
so to me the "surrendering" "his will" "god" "masculine" "father" anything denoting to that triggers me becuz of my past.....i know its wrong to compare a low life child offender to the creator, and i realize that what i mention above are only words, but these *words* still trigger me....so to "make it work" for me, i had to just "work around" the god stuff and find my HP that worked for me w/out triggering the heck out of me.....
as an incest survivor, it is common for us to have an issue with the "God thing" becuz to this DAY, i will never understand why a loving and kind and helping god would allow such evil to be visited on the most precious thing on earth....children.....i will probably die with trust issues over this....i remember beseeching and begging "god" to come help me...."get him OFF me"....and noone came.....i don't know at what age , i lost the ability to trust in anything but me......i am improving on this....i have found that i CAN trust a precious FEW SAFE people......i am finding that when i RELEASE the fight.....STOP resisting and fighting and attacking life, it goes easier....like the positive forces can come in IF i get the hell out of the way and give NON resistance to my conditions........
i just show up for duty with the program, and i quit trying to figure out why so much crap and suffering and pain is allowed to happen to us here......i have too much on my plate tryin to put the pieces of my shattered life together....
this thread is fascinating to me, becuz i am glad to know that HERE in this PROGRAM, ia am FREE to embrace an HP as step two says "AS I UNDERSTAND IT"......there is no gender, no name, etc....just the words "AS I UNDERSTAND IT" was what kept me here
if someone tried to shove the bible down my throat, i would have left......i got very bitter reading the bible in past years, all those promises that never happened for me, so i just put the book away, chalked it off as god talking to someone ELSE or perhaps referring to the after life...either way, i dont' buy into the bible 100%.....some of it i can relate to...the rest?? i don't buy into.......
i guess i am metaphysical......to me??? relegion is for people who FEAR hell....spirituality is for people, like me, who have already BEEN in hell......
i know that i have to take care of me as FAR as i can, and than what i do is just RELEASE me from the karma and let the universal energy do whatever is to be done......i "Get out of the way" if u want to call that surrender?? ok, but to me??? its stepping aside when i have done all i can do and can do no more, and i just let the karma go as it will....."play the cards i am dealt and let the outcome work it self out"........
i hope this post made sense, i am sooo tired and need to go to bed, but whoever brought this up, i appreciate it......i liked what amanda said about LOVE......sometimes when i can't find anything positive in my karma for the moment, i can find it in love......
no matter, we are here, together, working to REclaim our lives.....i know what i HAVE seen of any god or whatever it is to be called---- i found it here in this program.......NO place else,
please use what works and dump the rest....this is just my take, rosie
Thanx everyone.. Some good points and some good things to think about.
I was abit flattened when i read the agnostic bit of the bb. And i hadnt started reading it expecting such things.. I really expected to read something more helpful to me but i didnt which came as a great supprise and dissapointment. So thanxs everyone for your thoughts, ideas and perspectives.
I also had a father who was very abusive and violent, and words like 'obedience', 'surrender', and the like have become triggers. My mom and dad both quoted parts of the Bible that suited them in an interpretation that suited them,, like "honor your mother and father", which they interpreted to be to let them do whatever they wanted, and say whatever they wanted and I was just to passively go along with it or I'd go to hell. Still causes a stomach turn to think about that. Of course that affects a person's formation and thinking about trust and love for anybody, since in early childhood parents are the role models and examples that we learn from.
Some very good ideas on this thread that I am learning from about the process of being open to learning about and growing in our understanding of a Higher Power, Love, God.
love in recovery,
amanda
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do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
cooncatbob wrote: Hey Rob; You can believe whatever you want, it's okay. But I have to ask you a question. Are you trying to find a reason that this program won't work for you? (this won't work for me because I don't believe in a higher power?) I believe in the Cowboy way, my Bible called "Don't Squat With Yer Spurs On! written by Texas Bix Bender. It contains pearls of wisdom such as. Never take to sawin' the branch that's supportin' you, unless you're being hung from it. and, If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin'. and Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day. Recovery works but it is work and hard and painful work at that. Good luck. Bob.-- Edited by cooncatbob at 20:07, 2006-05-10-- Edited by cooncatbob at 20:08, 2006-05-10
I'm going to have to find a copy of that book.
I am agnostic and I suppose when you strip off all the fancy trappings a lot of people would say I'm an athiest. I read a lot of Taoist and Buddhist texts and have found that a lot of the philosophies within those books come pretty close to the way I've always thought and what my own spirituality seems to be.
I ignore the christianity- and yes it does seem to get shoved down my throat a bit and is a real turn off for me- and just take what I can get out of the program. I know who I am and what I believe and I try to not let the bible thumpers get me down too much.
That being said- I know some very cool people who I'd never guess were christians because their spirituality is their own personal thing. Same with some very cool buddhists. Spirituality in large part comes from within you (in my opinion) and is a very personal discovery- and I would never ever want to tell someone that something so close to their heart is a lie- that just isn't my place.
