Last night at my meeting we did the 7th step out of the 12&12. So of course we talked about humility. I heard many different explanations of what humility means to different people. I know in the book it talked about becoming loving and tolerant of other people. For me there are two things that stand in the way of my usefulness to others. They are pride and ego, not to mention fear. I guess that's three things.
There was this big conversation (argument) about whether this is a selfish program. I've heard this said so many times that I actually can see parts where I agree that it has to be a selfish program. Now I feel differently. There is nothing in the big book that refers to this being a selfish program. The book tells me that when I'm struggling with this disease the only way to get better is to interact with another alcoholic, to get out of myself and try to be of service to another human being. Selfishness to me is a huge character defect. I kind of view it like a little kid holding the toy to his chest, not willing to share. If I use my sobriety in this fashion I believe I am destined to failure and misery.
I am feeling better and I wanted to say thankyou to everyone that replied to my earlier post this week. I'm going to try and devote more time to MIP than I have lately. Coming on here and reading helps me to get centered when I am feeling a little screwy in the head. I hope everybody is doing well.
Well for me the selfish part is really very simple. I interrpret it to mean that we keep Sobriety First in our lives. It is the Only way we can survive, and not Drink.
That's the only part, that I have ever seen that could be contrued as selfish.
Putting Sobriety First in EVERYTHING can be threatening to some people, like friends that don't have a problem with Alcohol, and hypothecially say that want to do something, a movie, a dinner or whatever and you tell them you can't make it, you have a meeting.
I can remember some friends, treating me like "this is just more of your old self-centeredness". And my feeling about that was, if you are REALLY a friend, you'll support my new life, and if you cannot support my new life, in A.A. then, you're really not the kind of friend that I need.
Granted some people get real confused, 'you are no longer the "Fun" person you used to be. Yep, fun alright, at my own expense'.
Just my take on the Selfish Part.
Again, So Good to see you, and how are those head-aches, less and less, I hope,
Toni
Justin, I don't see the ego in you and I also don't think you seem to be holding on to Pride, maybe just some ghosting from the past is going on.
We are learning how to "walk" again, after years of using chuchtes (Spelling?) oh well, anway we are very wobbly on our new feet, people that don't have a drinking problem don't get it, and to that I say, "Oh, Well." It's our life we are saving through the Program, that comes first.
I have also heard people say that this is a selfish program, and then they feel justified in thinking only of themselves and their own well-being and being irresponsible when it comes to their relationships with other people. This is a twisting of the principle that we are to focus on ourselves. The focussing on ourselves is supposed to mean on our self improvement so that we are more loving and less selfish and hold up our end of relationships, and stop scapegoating other people. Someone put it well, I think, when they said it is like the airplane rule that we put on our oxygen mask first so we can help others to put on theirs,,,, if we don't put ours on first then we won't be able to help anyone else. It doesn't mean to just put ours on and not help anyone else,,, in fact the AA principles are that if we don't give it away we can't keep it... and love is like that. So the selfish part is that I don't focus on how wrong everyone else is and try to fix them according to how I think they should be,,, and I don't just cut everyone off to look out for number 1 and put those suckers on their own,,, but I do my own inventory and my own amends, and ask God to remove my character defects.
thanks for bringing that up,
amanda
__________________
do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
"like the airplane rule that we put on our oxygen mask first so we can help others to put on theirs,,,, if we don't put ours on first then we won't be able to help anyone else. "
Yeah that about sums it up in a nutshell i think.. well said Amanda.. I like that.
Glad you are feeling better Justin.. Yeah how are the headaches, gone yet?
This is a program of love, there is nothing selfish about being true to yourself,. so be kind to yourself and everyone about you and you cant go wrong, what is selfish and I was guilty of it is to be nice to people to get your own way.
I would urge you to just be kind and loving to yourself and others, with no expectations of reward and not worry too much about the politics of a,a for the time being, it will come.
I think it is a very selfish program- We have to help others to help ourselves, so in helping others we are aiding our own sobriety, and thus acting selfishly-
When I am not taking part in the AA community and helping others in this way which is helpful to myself, then my life starts to feel detached and one-dimensional-
The way I act when drinking (isolating, disregarding myself and others) was self-destructive, which is certainly not selfish or self-sustaining- So in summation, I suppose when they say a selfish program, they mean this in a positive light- We have to act truly selfishly and in our own best interests to stay sober, which means being a productive member of AA and the greater community and striving to carry the message- (I think there was an episode of Seinfeld about this...)
Well, my thinking around my Alcohol use was pretty Selfish. that is my take, maybe it was the Disease, who knows, but in my drinking days, I put Alcohol first, It was my Significant other. Really, it came before my husband, and step son, it came before my work, it came before my own best interest too.
So, as I work this Program, keeping my sobriety in Front of everything else, and when I give back, working with other Alcoholics, that are still struggleing with this disease, it is part of the Action part of this Program, so in that light, you might look at as part of my own Sobriety, being first in everything, but when I am free of self thought, and giving freely to another Alcoholic, not because I have to, as a means of staying sober, but because I want to, out of love for anyone that I see, and I recall being "in their shoes". I don't consider this a selfish act, to the contrary, it takes me away from me. I give freely by choice, want anyone suffering from this Disease, that happens to be in my life, to have the opportunity of Sobriety, and sometimes, giving involves simple doing all I can, suggesting the meetings, and the working of the Steps, and letting go of the results. I have been blessed with someone in my life, that has had many years of Recovery, and had a 7 month Relapse, and she is struggleing, in the same way she did when she first came in over 25 years ago. I like her and go to meetings with her, encourage her to talk in meetings, and now she is. She had a Sponsor that led her again through the Steps, and then told her, they were done, she needed to find some one else. And there I was, and so grateful, that she is in my life.
When I first relocated to this area, felt a need to really get back in the Program, stop moaning about missing my home group, and it slowly worked, but it was hard work, but if I did not think about Drinking, then I was o.k. , but the knowledge of drinking being the last part of the slip is what was on my mind. Then I found MIP, in early December, began being very active here, on this board, and it changed my attitude completely around. Started going to 3, sometimes 4 meetings a week, and found that when I kept going back, that is how you begin fitting in, you can't feel like you a part of a Group, unless you are active in the Group. Simple Stuff, but I needed a wack on the head, to get it straight, now I feel like I am back in the Program like I was for many,many years. Working the Steps actively again, that to me is the Key, and working with others.
Have two people in this Program, that I am in daily contact with, and doing the best I can do with what is in Front of me to do.
Hope you all are having a Great Spring Sunday, I sure am.
God Bless you all and God Bless this MIP Forum for its Life Safeing qualities. So much Gratitude to John for starting this.
I think it is paradoxical in a way, yes. But it all depends on what our definition of love is,,, if selfish means that everything we do is only for ourselves, including being nice to people only to manipulate them into giving up their lives for us,, if it means to try to get things only for ourselves,, get our own way,, get happy, be the centre of the universe,, the whole universe,,, to avoid all pain and discomfort,, especially that caused by other peoples' foibles, weaknesses, trials and needs,,, the old 'it's not hurting me so I don't care' attitude,,, we are going to be very miserable lonely people sitting in the midst of our 'stuff' .
sometimes we don't understand what love is,,, we can be slaves to our selves,,, as the book says,,, to our instincts. I HAVE to get some of this,,,, I HAVE to get that,,,, I NEED a drink. codependent on our selves. This is not love.
Love is a committment to work towards the well-being of the beloved,, to do what is in the real best interest... do what is wise in the long run. Sometimes love is saying 'no',, to our selves too. And sometimes love is making our selves do something we don't really want to because we know that, in the long run, it is for our ultimate well-being.
Ultimate well-being takes thinking about the long-run. We say that we stay in the present,, just for today,,, but we do have a general direction for the future too. We try to keep gas in the car for the future,, food in our cabinets,, set our alarm clocks, make appointments. We have to think, when making a plan, how it is going to affect our future. Is being alone with a lot of stuff what we ultimately want? Is being a slave to our instincts what we ultimately want? We can think about our own happiness along with others... equal opportunity,, sharing. This is a WE program,, not a ME program.
I agree that selfishness is only mentioned in the literature as a bad thing,, and was not any original principle of the program, but something we are supposed to get over. Or else it is contradictory... it can't be a 'we' program and a 'me' program at the same time. The 'me' part is that I'm hear to change me,, and not you,, so that I know how to be 'we',,,, and get over being all about me, me me, me, me.
When I share MY experience, strength and hope,,, the key word is 'SHARE'. It is not just a monologue of what interests me at the moment,,, but a sharing of a part of my life with someone else,,, choosing what I'm going to share and how so that it benefits others also.
It is a self-improvement program... not a self-ish program. We don't try to tell people how we think they should run their lives,, especially since we obviously can't even run our own! Like my life is a mess but I'm gonna give that one advice? We try to improve the way we are living our own lives,,, and share that,, so that other people get examples, not advice.
God bless you all,
amanda
__________________
do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
