It is said that this is a 'we' program,,, that we are no longer alone,, that we are going to stop being so selfish and self-centered,, that this self-ishness has been the biggest cause of our problems. We admit that we have seldom felt like we belonged in any group, but have felt alone and alienated. We talk to another person in Step 5, and make amends to other people in Step 9,, and then in Step 12 we carry the message. We say we have to give it away to others in order to keep what we got freely from our Higher Power.
How, then, do some people turn around and say that we are learning to take care of only ourselves and let other people fend for themselves as we focus only on our selves? How can we do all this so-called 'detaching', which here is interpreted as cutting off other people so that we are no longer relating to them,, and 'letting go' which is interpreted the same way, which is the opposite of becoming 'we'. How can we ignore other people's needs and do a 'me' program while still saying we are doing a 'we' program?
My understanding has been that the 'me' part is the self-improvement part, and the 'we' part is that I am learning how to improve my end of relationships so that I can better do my part of being a 'we'.
I don't think it can be both that we are learning to be more selfish, and learning how to be less selfish, at the same time.
Maybe balance is a key to this?
amanda
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do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
he amanda it will take a few minutes for me to get my balance back after reading that lol. butt i get what you are getting at or at least what you are asking .i have no true insight as of yet butt ill try to mull it over a bit more and get back to you with my thoughts (lol thats funny"my thoughts")i wish i knew what they were have the time i think im going to try to medate cause id realy like to be alone sometimes i even want to be away from myself.dont mind me i ramble a lot today cause this is how im getting by right now any have a great day
I think Jen drew the exact distinction between the "We and Me" aspects of being in a 12 Step Recovery Program. If someone, something is threatening my Sobriety, time to "detach with love".
For me it is we when I pick some one up and take them to a meeting or just share.
If i don't have me ( in spiritual condition )there is no WE.
I need to quit a certain meeting for me. It drives me crazy. I won't go into it all.
But It's me that has to move because it's just not good for my soberity. Is this selfish ? Maybe ?
I always was told it's a selfish program if I don't take care of yourself ( ME) first that there is no WE.
I guess if my house isn't in order today, What can I give today ?
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize that we only know a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning mediation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something that you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.
Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny, May God bless you and keep you-----until then.
Thanks for all the replies. I've been in recovery for almost 18 years now. I've seen a whole lot of very selfish people using the excuse that someone is 'threatening my sobriety' to act in very unloving and uncaring ways. The 'me' part is the part that is into self improvement. The program says that if someone is threatening my sobriety that it is me that is not accepting someone or something. The program says that, if a person is in recovery truly, we have serenity so that no one outside can threaten my sobriety. I choose whether to drink or not and nobody else.
The we part is not supposed to be that I self-centeredly choose to associate only with people whom I like and who are doing things that make it easy for me to stay sober. Like I choose to be 'we' with this one and not that one. The 'we' part is that all of the people here are part of 'we' whether I like them or not. The 'we' part is that even though we may not like someone 'we' come to love them in a special way. It takes two to love,, it is not a narcissistic program where I look in the mirror or at my favorite people to include in a small cliquey 'we'.
Yes,, sometimes we do have to make a space between ourselves and someone who is dangerous and insists on being very negative and destructive.
Another part of it is that we say that we are supposed to be caring for the sick and suffering... but the sick and suffering are mostly kind of unlikeable people. Is it only people who are sick and suffering in ways that are not distasteful to us? Like... Bill over here is actively drinking and feeling hopeless. We care about Bill if he is being nice while he is killing himself? But if he is being aggravating then forget about him? Then we ought to be honest and say that we care about some of the sick and suffering,, and that this a not a 'we' program but a 'some of us' program.
love in recovery,
amanda
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do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
The program may SUGGEST some of these things, however, we must always keep in mind we are human and we have faults. Alcoholic or not, there was only one perfect man on this earth. The rest of us do the best we can with what we have to work with. Good old Common sense tells me if something or someone is a threat to me, in any way, shape or form, I have to be responsible enough to do the next right thing and remove myself from whatever it is..... If some use it as an EXCUSE as you put it, then that's on them. We can only carry the MESSege not the MESS.
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* We eventually realize that just as the pains of alcoholism had to come before sobriety, emotional turmoil comes before serenity. *
amanda____How, then, do some people turn around and say that we are learning to take care of only ourselves and let other people fend for themselves as we focus only on our selves? How can we do all this so-called 'detaching', which here is interpreted as cutting off other people so that we are no longer relating to them,, and 'letting go' which is interpreted the same way, which is the opposite of becoming 'we'. How can we ignore other people's needs and do a 'me' program while still saying we are doing a 'we' program?
____rosie____amanda, one HELL of a share here, i was wondering the same thing till i realized that yes, i can ONLY control/ fix/ ME!!! however insteadof **care taking** i do care GIVING.....which to me means helping my loved one or ANYone find their solutio, or get back on track.....also i realize that focusing on me, means working MY inventory and "living and letting live"........not to "fend for themselves" but to "walk their OWN path" i can give EMPATHY rather than pity....i can give SUPPORT rather than interfering..... **detaching** when there is nothing i can do, like trying to get someone li love to stop drinking/ using......detaching from events, i have NO control over......detachment to me is just "releaseing me from the karma and letting the universe take over that which i cannot do anything about" i think i am a **we** person who loves/supports/encourages, rather than interfers, for example,
if i can a small child are stranded in the wilderness and we are facing this BIG hill to climb, doesn't it make sense for me to nourish MY body, so i can carry the child up the hill???? or if i am in a plane with a small child and the plane hits a "may day" situation, it behooves me to FIRST put MY oxy mask on so i don't pass out and thus cannot place the mask over the child companions face.....this is what i see as my analogies to the "taking care of me, so i can radiate that out to others" i do hope this made sense.....i guess the whole focus of the program , to me, imho, is the better we can love ourselves, the better we can GIVE the love to others.......
of course i became codependent becuz of my abuse-- i completely LOST me...i suffered TOTAL loss of self.....so for me, i focus on ME first, "let it begin with me" is one of my favorite slogans, and "live and LET live" and i am amazed at how much BETTER, i am as a mom, sister, aunt, friend etc...... just my take, please take what u can use, leave the rest, rosie .
I like that,,, 'carry the message and not the mess'... that means that when a person in recovery is doing the 12th Step that s/he is supposed to carry the AA message and not put their own mess on the other person instead. lol That's a good one,, how many of us really carry the message to others and not our own mess instead?
Yes.. when we are in danger sometimes the most loving thing to do for that other person is not kill them but make space. However, I have also seen many people who feel threatened by very little things,,, like people who disagree with them, or people who challenge their narrow thinking, or people who expect them to be responsible for something,, and they run like hell, or fight, or cry and point a finger at the other one for shaking them up... bad boy or girl for threatening by a challenging question, or a statement that disagrees, or a nudging reminder of a responsibility,,,, or worst of all and imperfection and/or need of their own that calls for some kind of positive response. "Oh, no! I have to protect my own sobriety, and can't jeopardize it by thinking about that or trying to respond to your need... unless, of course it happens to flatter me somehow."
Sometimes a challenge, or expectation, or need from another person,, that is perceived as a threat to one's unstable sobriety is actually a call to real growth and stretching oneself to meet it would be actually a Step in the right direction,,, even tho challenging. Then, does it really benefit me to cop out of it? or am I cutting off my nose to spite my face? Kind of like what a physical therapist does.. takes a person who has been crippled somehow and challenges them to work, to stretch themselves.... and the person with the crippling condition often reacts with resistance and anger, saying, "No! I can't do it!" Physical therapists are sometimes treated with a lot of negativity and hostility because they are challenging.
Yes,, and there it is,, the other one.. when we are confronted with the truth of one of the principles,, then we reply with,, 'well, these are only suggestions' while we look for an easier , softer way.
Thanks for your reply and perspectives. Yours and mine are often at great variance. I am glad we both have the right to our own with equal standing,, while we let God be the only true Authority, as each one understands God.
God bless you all,
love in recovery,
amanda PS...
Rosie,, we were writing at the same time. Yes.. well, 'me first' is different than 'me only'. You and Rick are both very right to say that if I don't take care of myself I can't take care of anybody else. Balance. Balance. But. we have to be careful with the 'me first' thing too.. how many lines do you wait in during the course of a week,, and have to deal with the 'me first' poeple who are pushing and shoving and getting in front of you cuz they are 'in a hurry', or are tired, and next thing you know there are 10 people who got in front of you. 'We' kind of says,, 'you and I together' instead of 'me first and then if there is any left you can have some if you get it yourself cuz I'll be gone with mine'.
love in recovery,
amanda
-- Edited by amanda2u2 at 21:39, 2006-02-27
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do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
lol Doll.... you're out of bounds there with that last post. You are saying that I'm dishonest? and what is that about my panties?
This program does demand rigorous honesty,,, and that is what I am being,, rigorously honest. I've been keeping things on a plain that is not personal to anyone in particular. And I'm not going to respond in kind to your personal attack, except to say that it is inappropriate and not constructive.
I am praying for your family today as your son faces the judge who will decide what is best to do with your son. May God mercifully bless you all.
love in recovery,
amanda
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do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
Sometimes I read toooooooooo deep. It's KISS***keep it simple stupid**** I can complicate the hell out of things. WE are peolpe***I went to a speakers meeting last night. The man had 30 years. I don't know where the hell he's been, but I don't think it was AA.
THe whole night was, I am , Iwas, I did.
Not to brag but.................. I did,.... I did ... I statred.. I was..I did.. on and on....................
lol Doll.... you're out of bounds there with that last post. You are saying that I'm dishonest? and what is that about my panties?
I DID NOT SAY YOU WERE 'DIS HONEST' I ASKED WHAT IS REALLY BUGGING YOU. SEEMS AS IF SOMETHING IS ON YOUR MIND.......THOUGHT MAYBE YOU'D LIKE TO SHARE THAT...MIGHT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER.......THAT'S ALL.
MY OTHER REPLY STILL STANDS..........J
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* We eventually realize that just as the pains of alcoholism had to come before sobriety, emotional turmoil comes before serenity. *
Whatever , Doll. And I'll repeat that I am saying what's on my mind, and being honest. And, if I choose to bite my tongue, then it is because I consider that the best thing to do. I see some really selfish and self-centered people who misinterpret some of the AA principles to excuse unloving behavior.
hey, Rick.. thanks for sharing... maybe the man who was the speaker was trying to 'keep the focus on himself', which is what AA recommends. We are to share our own experience, strength and hope in the program... how we were before, what happened in the program and how we are now. Talking about other people's last names? tsk, tsk
About keeping it simple.... you know.. the New Testament is simple too... it is all about Love.... this one too.. all about how to love.... simple word... L O V E ... it may be simple, but it shore ain't easy.
God bless you all,
amanda
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do your best and God does the rest, a step at a time
... L O V E ... it may be simple, but it shore ain't easy.
that saying "we don't have to like all AA's but we have to LOVE them"
I call BULLSHIT! on that one too.....
A2u2, whatever is right.....you APPEARED to have something else on your mind. something really bugging you (i.e. "panties in a wad" ~ something my granny used to say.)...just thought I'd ask........my bad.......
RULE 62
-- Edited by Doll at 22:44, 2006-02-28
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* We eventually realize that just as the pains of alcoholism had to come before sobriety, emotional turmoil comes before serenity. *
