When I politely asked Pam to try and keep her posting sensitive to the newcomer who may be scared off by hearing about Jesus Saves, I received an incredibly rude pm back. She has been asked several times to lighten up and has ignored it, instead responding with very un-Christian like attitude. Her worst posts have been edited or deleted, yet nobody banned her. Every single moderator has requestd this from her. John has been made aware of this, and each letter she has sent, or has been edited, was sent to him for his information. To say she is under fire for her religious beliefs is a lie. She has simply been asked to keep newcomers in mind, because we had received complaints from other members who were turned off when they had a chance to read her crap before we got to edit it. Every few months or so, someone who has to keep things stirred up comes here and does so. Bored with their lives I suppose. Myself, Pam, I'm adding your name to my Womens Prayer Circle, since you pm'ed me and so kindly told me that you were going to pray for me to See the Light. I'm hoping that you, too, will see some light.
PS: I made an error in the above statement--As Pam pointed out in a private message to me tonight, I lied. She did not pray for me to see the light. She is praying for me to see God's will for me. I apologize for miswording it. chris
Thankyou for clarifying, Chris. 'Jesus' is a pretty specific HP for some! I like to keep it more open & malleable for anyone to interpret as they wish. I hope all Newcomers can understand the general message that is being passed on here without evangelism. I know we can all get quite passionate with our viewpoints occasionally!
A.A. Preamble ~
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
The only requirement for memebership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
Above copyright 1947 by The A.A., Grapevine, Inc.
I hope the reprinting of this is in no impingement of copyright law. I apologise in advance if I have done so.
Yours, in recovery, Danielle x
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Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
My BS filter must be working cause I don't know who your referring to. Do she have an alias? I to like to keep beliefs concerning my higher power on broad terms. A lot of newcomers are pissed off at God by the time they get to AA and need time to find a higher power of their own understanding and get turned off when another person no matter how well meaning tries to cram their higher power down their throat. Bob.
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Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like no one is watching.
Whoops, now nobody is going to know what we're talking about Danielle. All the reference post mysteriously disappeared, LOL. Oh, well, atleast it's clear to us, eh? love, your Sister in sobriety, chris
I also privately and politely asked Pam simply to moderate herself. I did not threaten her, single her out, ask her to stop posting, nor did I tell her that she could not reference her "higher power". Many people have posted here with the word "GOD" in the text of their message, and have not received any requests to remove it or to tone it down.
The crux of my message to her was this:
You have every right to your born again beliefs, and to express your daily success in sobriety through your "higher power", but as Phil put it, please know too that a small few who might be saved by AA might run for the exits if we come on too strong
When I suggested in my PM to Pam that heavy emphasis on her specific
Christian God as being the way of AA could send newcomers running for the exits, she even admitted that she ran into just such a type when she was a newcomer, and that she "couldn't stand her"!
I agree with Phil's actions. Frankly the open challenge issued to any moderator is more than enough reason to permanently ban any individual from any AA meeting and from the board. If she posted something like that, it is a blatant attempt to usurp control. Also, if a person is disruptive and/or combatitive with ANY other member at ANY AA meeting, have you noticed how little time elapses before that person is asked to leave?
One last note: If anyone wants to have AA meetings that are specificly focused to their religious beliefs? Feel free to create such a group, and openly advertise it as such to anyone you invite to attend. And, if anyone feels the need to have an evangelistic AA website? Feel free to go out and create one of your own. Don't go on to another one and try to turn it into your personal forum. If you do, you are missing a fundamental precept of AA, as posted by Sobrietyspell (thanks Danielle!)
-- Edited by Sick of being sick at 08:56, 2007-10-18
I got this from her in a pm because I agreed with Phil in a thread about "it" possibly pushing newcomers away (and I think the thread was started by a newcomer). I guess she just cc'd me, the same message she sent to Phil, as I made no mention of "removing a discussion". Could she really not "get it" that this is a serious AA issue? IMO most people that come through the door are agnostics and atheists, and quite a few remain that way in recovery and do well with it.
"Dear SIr,
Why have you become offended by discussing Religion and A.A. Threatening to remove our discussions about Religion is it because I am a Christian? Is it personal? or for the betterment of the people?
Interesting discussion, good points, and guess I missed out on the drama.
We are having a very similar problem with another recovery forum I post on.
It becomes disconcerting to some, and yes, does run newcomers off, when you have someone posting scripture every other post, and announcing that the rest of the poor sots who do not believe as they do are just 'ignorant' and 'uninformed'.
Spirituality discussions are welcome. There are thousands of places on the internet to discuss religious dogma.
Personally, I had religion crammed down my throat for 18 years, and my father and I still butt heads on the subject of religion and attending church.
Spirituality is God-given; religion is man-made. That's my belief. The God of my parents', or the Catholic church's understanding is not the God of my understanding who has kept me sober.
I work very hard at practicing a spiritual program daily in my life.
Just my two cents!
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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguements and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
~Herbert Spencer
Interesting discussion, good points, and guess I missed out on the drama.
We are having a very similar problem with another recovery forum I post on.
It becomes disconcerting to some, and yes, does run newcomers off, when you have someone posting scripture every other post, and announcing that the rest of the poor sots who do not believe as they do are just 'ignorant' and 'uninformed'.
Spirituality discussions are welcome. There are thousands of places on the internet to discuss religious dogma.
Personally, I had religion crammed down my throat for 18 years, and my father and I still butt heads on the subject of religion and attending church.
Spirituality is God-given; religion is man-made. That's my belief. The God of my parents', or the Catholic church's understanding is not the God of my understanding who has kept me sober.
I work very hard at practicing a spiritual program daily in my life.
Just my two cents!
that is exactly my situation and belief. I do still attend the RCC a few times a year because it is familar, but I find that many of the "professions or faith" are contradictory to my non-denominational belief system that I aquired here. The HP of my understanding today is "a father sitting in the football stands of life cheering me on to do bigger and better things, to love and be loved, and to be happy".
My 2 cents.......I've wondered what a newbie reading the Daily Reflections would think. Since it is full of God. Some of the quotes and shares do follow with "of my understanding" but most do not....For the person who's first step is coming to this (or any AA) site & this is their first glimpse into the program, what must they think...I, personally, never knew AA had anything to do with spirituality until I came. I consider myself lucky that I don't and have never had a problem with the whole "god thing". .... I happen to believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible, but I would never quote or make reference to any scriptures for the reasons stated above....I think it's pretty clear that we (seasoned AA's) know when the word God is used, we mean of our individual understanding or belief and don't have to add that....I end many of my threads or replies with "prayers headed your way, etc" so I hope no - one has been offended by that.
It does saddend me though that a banning was necessary and why no one is offended by Buddah or Allah, (or whatever) but mention the good old J.C. and people get weird....as I understand it AA was originally based on The Oxford Group ... and I know for sure the 5th Step is in the book of John....I think, too, it's a bit harsh to refer to Pam's (or anyone's) posts/replies as "crap" - someone (believer or non) could take offense to that just as easily.........But, as stated, just my 2 cents.
-- Edited by Doll at 20:28, 2007-10-18
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Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain.
