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Doctors opinion?
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Hello all, looking for ESH.......

It was suggested to me to read the Doctors opinion ( nothing more just that) and perhaps identify myself with a 'type'..........i have  the suggesters tel no but can't get her in, yet :)

I am not identifying with a type i am all types except perhaps the 'manic depressive' but also see them as different stages of me ????? Have i missed the point?

I also 'think' (that damn thinking again) that it is asking me to put itellect aside and believe in something ? It was the line about laymen and ex-problem drinkers that got me :) So don't use my intellect but see how it fits my experience?

Tell me am i off the mark confused.gif

with gratitude
Jane

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Anybody ???







sorry i'm an instant gratification sort of a girl ;)

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Yu just gotta know right NOW hu? lol

Quote from The Doctors Opinion..."
The doctors theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us. As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may, of course, mean little. But as exproblem drinkers, we can say that his explanation makes good sense. It explains many things for which we cannot otherwise account. I dont really comprehend the answer that youre looking for my freind...:)But all its really saying...in my opinion..isNormal people...and social drinkers cannot identify with any of this..We as ex drinkers CAN...Nothing to think about...and nothing to analyze...:)If you can elaborate a bit more....I would be pleased to try and share with you...:)


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I don't really know what am asking lol.........just a little concerned that i am more than one type ( as the types are outlined).......did anyone else identify themselves as all the types ?

You kinda answered some of my question, i can't always trust my understanding of the written word just really trying to get a feel that i'm understanding it, i am desperately trying to keep it simple which should be easy as i am not that smart just fancy myself as the 'itellectual type' hee hee...we live and learn

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Ok ....heres the whole thing....:)


WE OF Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the reader will be interested in the medical estimate of the plan of recovery described in this book. Convincing testimony must surely come from medical men who have had experience with the sufferings of our members and have witnessed our return to health. A well-known doctor, chief physician at a nationally prominent hospital specializing in alcoholic and drug addiction, gave Alcoholics Anonymous this letter:

To Whom It May Concern:

I have specialized in the treatment of alcoholism for many years.

In late 1934 I attended a patient who, though he had been a competent businessman of good earning capacity, was an alcoholic of a type I had come to regard as hopeless.

In the course of his third treatment he acquired certain ideas concerning a possible means of recovery. As part of his rehabilitation he commenced to present his conceptions to other alcoholics, impressing upon them that they must do likewise with still others. This has become the basis of a rapidly growing fellowship of these men and their families. This man and over one hundred others appear to have recovered.

I personally know scores of cases who were of the type with whom other methods had failed completely.

These facts appear to be of extreme medical importance; because of the extraordinary possibilities of rapid growth inherent in this group they may mark a new epoch in the annals of alcoholism. These men may well have a remedy for thousands of such situations.

You may rely absolutely on anything they say about themselves.

Very truly yours,

William D. Silkworth, M.D.

 

The physician who, at our request, gave us this letter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in another statement which follows. In this statement he confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture must believethat the body of the alcoholic is quite as abnormal as his mind. It did not satisfy us to be told that we could not control our drinking just because we were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight from reality, or were outright mental defectives. These things were true to some extent, in fact, to a considerable extent with some of us. But we are sure that our bodies were sickened as well. In our belief, any picture of the alcoholic which leaves out this physical factor is incomplete.

The doctors theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us. As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may, of course, mean little. But as exproblem drinkers, we can say that his explanation makes good sense. It explains many things for which we cannot otherwise account.

Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as an altruistic plane, we favor hospitalization for the alcoholic who is very jittery or befogged. More often than not, it is imperative that a mans brain be cleared before he is approached, as he has then a better chance of understanding and accepting what we have to offer.

The doctor writes:

The subject presented in this book seems to me to be of paramount importance to those afflicted with alcoholic addiction.

I say this after many years experience as Medical Director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcoholic and drug addiction.

There was, therefore, a sense of real satisfaction when I was asked to contribute a few words on a subject which is covered in such masterly detail in these pages.

We doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics, but its application presented difficulties beyond our conception. What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific approach to everything, we are perhaps not well equipped to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic knowledge.

Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this book came under our care in this hospital and while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical application at once.

Later, he requested the privilege of being allowed to tell his story to other patients here and with some misgiving, we consented. The cases we have followed through have been most interesting; in fact, many of them are amazing. The unselfishness of these men as we have come to know them, the entire absence of profit motive, and their community spirit, is indeed inspiring to one who has labored long and wearily in this alcoholic field. They believe in themselves, and still more in the Power which pulls chronic alcoholics back from the gates of death.

Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures can be of maximum benefit.

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.

Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight. In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves, if they are to re-create their lives.

If any feel that as psychiatrists directing a hospital for alcoholics we appear somewhat sentimental, let them stand with us a while on the firing line, see the tragedies, the despairing wives, the little children; let the solving of these problems become a part of their daily work, and even of their sleeping moments, and the most cynical will not wonder that we have accepted and encouraged this movement. We feel, after many years of experience, that we have found nothing which has contributed more to the rehabilitation of these men than the altruistic movement now growing up among them.

Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinksdrinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.

On the other handand strange as this may seem to those who do not understandonce a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.

Men have cried out to me in sincere and despairing appeal: Doctor, I cannot go on like this! I have everything to live for! I must stop, but I cannot! You must help me!

Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that is in him, it often is not enough. One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change. Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach.

I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.

There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight.

The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We are all familiar with this type. They are always going on the wagon for keeps. They are over-remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision.

There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom a whole chapter could be written.

Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people.

All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.

This immediately precipitates us into a seething caldron of debate. Much has been written pro and con, but among physicians, the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed.

What is the solution? Perhaps I can best answer this by relating one of my experiences.

About one year prior to this experience a man was brought in to be treated for chronic alcoholism. He had but partially recovered from a gastric hemorrhage and seemed to be a case of pathological mental deterioration. He had lost everything worthwhile in life and was only living, one might say, to drink. He frankly admitted and believed that for him there was no hope. Following the elimination of alcohol, there was found to be no permanent brain injury. He accepted the plan outlined in this book. One year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange sensation. I knew the man by name, and partly recognized his features, but there all resemblance ended. From a trembling, despairing, nervous wreck, had emerged a man brimming over with self-reliance and contentment. I talked with him for some time, but was not able to bring myself to feel that I had known him before. To me he was a stranger, and so he left me. A long time has passed with no return to alcohol.

When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in by a physician prominent in New York. The patient had made his own diagnosis, and deciding his situation hopeless, had hidden in a deserted barn determined to die. He was rescued by a searching party, and, in desperate condition, brought to me. Following his physical rehabilitation, he had a talk with me in which he frankly stated he thought the treatment a waste of effort, unless I could assure him, which no one ever had, that in the future he would have the will power to resist the impulse to drink.

His alcoholic problem was so complex, and his depression so great, that we felt his only hope would be through what we then called moral psychology, and we doubted if even that would have any effect.

However, he did become sold on the ideas contained in this book. He has not had a drink for a great many years. I see him now and then and he is as fine a specimen of manhood as one could wish to meet.

I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray.

William D. Silkworth, M.D.




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MIP Old Timer

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Intellectual Type..??

Ive never met an alky that wasnt.....hahaha

We think too damned much....

It causes headaches....migraines....brain drain...and emotional turmoil...

Which type are you....?

It doesnt matter....

All we know for sure is....

"Youre one of us"

Now....how did I figure that out..???   lol

Have a good day eh....:)

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What do you mean Phil ?










Guess you caught me looking for the back door biggrin

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I guess all Im comically trying to say is....

I dont have all the answers..:)

I used to analyze the hell out of the whys and whos and whats...

Finally had to give up on a lot of it..

And just simply accept....that Im a recovering alcoholic...trying to arrest a disease called alcoholism...and just trying to become a better person...one day at a time...using the tools that we are given...

And finally figured out what the term "Keep it as simple as possible meant..(smile)

Not perfect at it yet..:)



-- Edited by Phil at 17:37, 2007-08-28

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alligot wrote:

I don't really know what am asking lol.........just a little concerned that i am more than one type ( as the types are outlined).......did anyone else identify themselves as all the types ?

 i am desperately trying to keep it simple which should be easy as i am not that smart just fancy myself as the 'itellectual type' hee hee...we live and learn


Hi alligot,

I spent 2 years either comparing out, or ignoring out.  Then when I started paying attention in step meetings where we read the steps, that I was really a "garden variety" drunk and that most of the descriptions, history, and actions
sounded like my story.  So yes I think that you can be several types.  I was a mantanence drinker during the week, and a binge drinker on the weekends.

Becareful with the "intellectual type" thing.  There's is such a thing as being too smart for this simple program.   I was one of them too.  That's addressed in step 2 I think.   Best idea?  Go for a year sober.  If at the end of the year you find you're not an alcoholic, you'll have a great start on one hell of a health kick.biggrin

 



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My best thinking (which included a LOT of analysis) almost killed me!

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Ok, a little more about me (my favourite subject) I have 6 and a half of those sober years but i'm still a little insane, i have no chaos in my life and my life is manageable, i have no problem with the god thing BUT i still live in my head!
I believe the steps are the solution and after an abscense from meetings of about 4 of those years i am now back and trying to be a newcomer in the way that i want to put all 'i know' aside.
I have read the doctors opinion as it was suggested i do this by another member at the meeting i attend (possible sponsor) I think i am asking for your understanding of this particular pieace of writing in the book. When i read it 6 &1/2 yrs back i felt it got me off the hook that what i had felt were concious choices were in fact taken from a place of powerlessness so i was given a sense of relief. Now i would not argue the 'allergy' in the scientific world but it fitted around my drinking and drugging. Today i feel the same. As a concept it is okay and applies to me but scientifically it has little ground...........i know there is on going research on this and do not need it to be proved or otherwise i am willing to go with it :)
I guess i wish to know if the whole point is to prepare me for the acceptance and willingness needed to approach the steps.......thats how i have percieved it. This is me keeping it simple lol! I am merely trying to be a diligent student as i am a bit like the hopeless case described in chapter 5 ( i think it is chapter 5, i was told to read no further than the doctors opinion, so that is from memory) I just soooo want to get this.
Stopping drinking and drugging is easy (now) i simply don't take the first one, i am here for my sanity and to get some serenity into my life. To learn to love me warts and all:)

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alligot wrote:
[quote=alligot]

Ok, a little more about me (my favourite subject) I have 6 and a half of those sober years but i'm still a little insane, i have no chaos in my life and my life is manageable, i have no problem with the god thing BUT i still live in my head!......

This is me keeping it simple lol! I am merely trying to be a diligent student as i am a bit like the hopeless case described in chapter 5 ( i think it is chapter 5, i was told to read no further than the doctors opinion, so that is from memory) I just soooo want to get this.
Stopping drinking and drugging is easy (now) i simply don't take the first one, i am here for my sanity and to get some serenity into my life. To learn to love me warts and all:)

___________________________________________________

Sorry Alli I am new to the board and you convinced me that you were in your first year. I guess I gave you a "drive by" response to your question that was in essence, keep it simple.

I really think you may be trying to hard to understand this writing by Dr. Silkworth. If it's not hitting home now, it might later. As far as the "alergy" reference, I couldn't agree more with that.

I too am a alcoholic and a drug addict. I started drinking at age 8. By the time I was a 15 yo, I was getting drunk regularly and using drugs. I was your typical "drink anyone under the table" drinker for the next 10 years, the something awful happened. The amount of alcohol that would put me "over the edge" started to vary. One night I could drink all I wanted and be "in control", the next night 5-6 drinks and I was in a blackout. Eventually the number of blackouts increased and the "controlled drinking" all but vanished.

Later to regulate my drinking, I drank only beer. That worked for about a year, then the same progression started again . By this time, I could have had only 2 beers and if someone gave me a shot of any kind of liqour, I would go immediately into a blackout. Classic example of "what once was my best friend had now become my worst enemy". I had become "allergic" to alcohol and there was no turning back the clock.

Of course I knew somthing was wrong with my drinking when I came into AA. I read the descriptions of what had happened to me in "how it works" and the big book etc... but I didn't want to believe it.
I spent the next two year '87-'89 going in and out, only getting a month or two of sobriety 6-8 times in that period. There is no doubt that "AA ruins your drinking", but if you keep going in and out, getting a couple months here and there it also IMO speeds up the progression of your disease as my tollerance dropped even lower.

i've heard the stories about those of us that getted hammered after 1 or 2 drinks and that keeps me sober just thinking about going into a blackout after 1 drink. So slice and dice it anyway you want, bottom line is that if you're an alcoholic trying to figure out exactly what our biological response to alcohol is, it is not as important as knowing that you just can't drink safely again ever.

Now about feeling sane, that's got a lot more to do with ones actions. "we act our way to better feeling".

 

 




 



-- Edited by StPeteDean at 21:53, 2007-09-02

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