A woman I know was always bringing up that she didn't believe in God, nor did she have a Higher Power. Although I made it clear to her in the beginning of our "newly blossoming" friendship that I am a Christian therefore I do believe in God, it did not stop her from bringing up the subject during many of our coffee meetings about her dissatisfaction with AA meetings because "they are always bringing up God". She shared she thought it was wrong because every meeting has the prayers "forcing" people who come to the meetings to hold hands and participate in "The Lord's Prayer", "The Serenity Prayer". She felt that many people get turned off and never come back and go back out and drink. She even said on numerous occasions that the Big Book was "outdated" and "should be edited to remove everything related to God and having a Higher Power". When she got her first sponsee she shared her concern that she felt like a hypocrite and that she didn't know how she was going to work the Steps with her and be effective because she just didn't believe in "all this God stuff".
I was not very helpful. I silently agreed with her, not having the courage to admit that I did about it being difficult to sponsor anyone, work them through the Steps, and not even believing in a Higher Power. She did sponsor the woman and some of our meetings were her expressing her frustration over having to listen to the woman's personal problems and after a few of their meetings, she told me she was so relieved that the woman she was sponsoring was moving out of town and that she would no longer have to listen to anymore of her problems. (And btw..she never exposed the woman's name or any specific problems, as I would have told her, it is not cool for a sponsor to share sponsee's info. THAT I would not have any problem telling her, although I wish I would have told her, irregardless of that, I didn't wish to hear "ANY" problem she had with her sponsee. I am still learning.
I was then and am now a bit disgusted with myself. I wasn't being true to myself, my own beliefs, was unfaithful to God, and allowed myself to sit and listen to what I knew then and know now I was not comfortable hearing. I was basically told I was one of the "idiots" who believe the way I do because science and technology has never been able to prove of His existence. I wanted to say what I have heard others say, I cannot "see" electricity (among other things) either, but I know that it exists. By saying nothing other than briefly telling her about my upbringing and me being Christian, I found myself quite intimidated by this woman, eagerly wanting to have a close female friend in my life, and too worried about standing up for what I believe in for fear of losing a friend.
I have decided I was a wuss. I didn't have enough respect for myself and self confidence at that time. A person who used to be a regular poster on this board, told me "Don't be afraid to let others know that you belief in God." It didn't stick. I have been afraid at times to share in meetings just that because I realized that there were people in the rooms who didn't believe in Him and because of what my woman friend had shared, it reinforced in my mind that I best keep my God to myself. So I substituted my "Higher Power" and that could have been anything from a door knob, people in the rooms, or God...but I didn't specify "God" because I thought it would offend those who didn't believe in Him. On the other hand, I willingly listened to others sharing about their non-belief in Him. Or their non-belief in any Higher Power. I may have thought "that's a shame, how will they stay sober?" in the back of my mind. What they said just cemented more in my head that I had to keep my mouth shut about my belief in Him. Sure didn't want to turn off and possibly chase anyone out of the meetings by sharing what I truly believe in!
And I must say that while I was researching something AA related, I found an old posting on this board where a moderator at that time said that if anyone posted anything "religious" it would be removed. So it is alright, in his/her mind, to post anything else, just don't post about "God". Unreal. I think that probably goes against our Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion rights in the Constitution.
I have decided that no longer will I allow myself to sit anywhere and be afraid of voicing my own beliefs. I love God and know that for me to stay sober, I have to believe in Him. I am not ashamed of saying the prayers in the meetings nor do I think the Big Book has to be edited of all the "God stuff". The Big Book and all of the things contained in its pages have saved a lot of people. God has done so much for me in my life. More than I will ever have the capacity or understanding to know. I am trying harder than ever to open up my mind and heart more and be receptive of His will for me. I blamed Him for so many things which went wrong in my life while giving Him little if any credit for all of the good things--the many Blessings I have had throughout the over five decades of my life. I got po'd at God. I am over all that po'd-ism stuff. And I am over being fearful of letting others know that I have every right to believe in God just as they have every right not to.
And if my beliefs offend anyone, that is not my problem however, I will pray for them.
Amen.
-- Edited by leavetherest on Sunday 3rd of January 2016 11:15:20 AM
I knew it was wrong at the time, Pappy, and I still did nothing about it. That nagging, uncomfortable feeling in my head was probably God trying to let me know about my behavior. Your BB point made me think of something else which is in the Bible...by this Judas guy who denied Jesus three times. I am sure that I went well over that many times with my silence. Shame on me. Nevermore though. I won't go sofar to be as one woman was when she said "It doesn't matter if you are sober or not, if you don't believe in God, you are going to burn in Hell anyway." Talk about extreme.
The human who so believes in God will never harm another human.
If I am to attract a sick and abused soul out from the corner where it hides... speaking my words of faith will do very little if anything but possible scare it more. It might wonder to what length I will go to force it to believe it should remove itself from it's fear based, self imposed prison.
However if I sit calmly, lovingly and compassionately by... offering food, clothing, shelter, warmth, smiles and love... expecting nothing in return, and asking nothing of it... it may wonder on it's own where I find the power to do so, and what my source of this love is derived from. And if it asks... it will naturally fall from my lips to express in my own simple human way, the God that I understand surpasses all human understanding.
__________________
Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
A woman I know was always bringing up that she didn't believe in God, nor did she have a Higher Power. Although I made it clear to her in the beginning of our "newly blossoming" friendship that I am a Christian therefore I do believe in God, it did not stop her from bringing up the subject during many of our coffee meetings about her dissatisfaction with AA meetings because "they are always bringing up God". She shared she thought it was wrong because every meeting has the prayers "forcing" people who come to the meetings to hold hands and participate in "The Lord's Prayer", "The Serenity Prayer". She felt that many people get turned off and never come back and go back out and drink. She even said on numerous occasions that the Big Book was "outdated" and "should be edited to remove everything related to God and having a Higher Power". When she got her first sponsee she shared her concern that she felt like a hypocrite and that she didn't know how she was going to work the Steps with her and be effective because she just didn't believe in "all this God stuff".
I was not very helpful. I silently agreed with her, not having the courage to admit that I did about it being difficult to sponsor anyone, work them through the Steps, and not even believing in a Higher Power. She did sponsor the woman and some of our meetings were her expressing her frustration over having to listen to the woman's personal problems and after a few of their meetings, she told me she was so relieved that the woman she was sponsoring was moving out of town and that she would no longer have to listen to anymore of her problems. (And btw..she never exposed the woman's name or any specific problems, as I would have told her, it is not cool for a sponsor to share sponsee's info. THAT I would not have any problem telling her, although I wish I would have told her, irregardless of that, I didn't wish to hear "ANY" problem she had with her sponsee. I am still learning.
I was then and am now a bit disgusted with myself. I wasn't being true to myself, my own beliefs, was unfaithful to God, and allowed myself to sit and listen to what I knew then and know now I was not comfortable hearing. I was basically told I was one of the "idiots" who believe the way I do because science and technology has never been able to prove of His existence. I wanted to say what I have heard others say, I cannot "see" electricity (among other things) either, but I know that it exists. By saying nothing other than briefly telling her about my upbringing and me being Christian, I found myself quite intimidated by this woman, eagerly wanting to have a close female friend in my life, and too worried about standing up for what I believe in for fear of losing a friend.
I have decided I was a wuss. I didn't have enough respect for myself and self confidence at that time. A person who used to be a regular poster on this board, told me "Don't be afraid to let others know that you belief in God." It didn't stick. I have been afraid at times to share in meetings just that because I realized that there were people in the rooms who didn't believe in Him and because of what my woman friend had shared, it reinforced in my mind that I best keep my God to myself. So I substituted my "Higher Power" and that could have been anything from a door knob, people in the rooms, or God...but I didn't specify "God" because I thought it would offend those who didn't believe in Him. On the other hand, I willingly listened to others sharing about their non-belief in Him. Or their non-belief in any Higher Power. I may have thought "that's a shame, how will they stay sober?" in the back of my mind. What they said just cemented more in my head that I had to keep my mouth shut about my belief in Him. Sure didn't want to turn off and possibly chase anyone out of the meetings by sharing what I truly believe in!
And I must say that while I was researching something AA related, I found an old posting on this board where a moderator at that time said that if anyone posted anything "religious" it would be removed. So it is alright, in his/her mind, to post anything else, just don't post about "God". Unreal. I think that probably goes against our Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion rights in the Constitution.
I have decided that no longer will I allow myself to sit anywhere and be afraid of voicing my own beliefs. I love God and know that for me to stay sober, I have to believe in Him. I am not ashamed of saying the prayers in the meetings nor do I think the Big Book has to be edited of all the "God stuff". The Big Book and all of the things contained in its pages have saved a lot of people. God has done so much for me in my life. More than I will ever have the capacity or understanding to know. I am trying harder than ever to open up my mind and heart more and be receptive of His will for me. I blamed Him for so many things which went wrong in my life while giving Him little if any credit for all of the good things--the many Blessings I have had throughout the over five decades of my life. I got po'd at God. I am over all that po'd-ism stuff. And I am over being fearful of letting others know that I have every right to believe in God just as they have every right not to.
And if my beliefs offend anyone, that is not my problem however, I will pray for them.
Amen.
-- Edited by leavetherest on Sunday 3rd of January 2016 11:15:20 AM
Freedom of speech and religion are indeed rights protected by the U.S. Constitution. But it is the government that is forbidden to restrict those rights. In the case of this forum, MIP is private property and the owner, John, can restrict or control participation and membership on his property any way he sees fit.
The moderators are appointed solely by his authority and may establish any rules that John allows them to enact.
So, LTR, you have no legal recourse if you disagree with any restrictions or rules established by the ownership or his appointees. There is nothing unconstitutional about deleting or editing of posts by moderators at a privately owned site.
Oh my goodness, Tanin! I am not into suing people, and it certainly never crossed my mind about suing John/this board. My mind is messed up, which I have many times readily admitted. It is not messed up that much! And if my posting caused your mind or anyone else's to think it does, I'm sorry.
My indebtedness to John for starting this board for me and other alcoholics is immeasurable. And on second thought, any apologies/amends I would need to make for any kind of misunderstanding or inability to convey my thinking is owed to John wholly. I'm sorry John.
Oh and Tanin, as I said before, I wish I had your brain. Mine is still tired.
Oh my goodness, Tanin! I am not into suing people, and it certainly never crossed my mind about suing John/this board. My mind is messed up, which I have many times readily admitted. It is not messed up that much! And if my posting caused your mind or anyone else's to think it does, I'm sorry.
My indebtedness to John for starting this board for me and other alcoholics is immeasurable. And on second thought, any apologies/amends I would need to make for any kind of misunderstanding or inability to convey my thinking is owed to John wholly. I'm sorry John.
Oh and Tanin, as I said before, I wish I had your brain. Mine is still tired.
I wouldn't worry too much about violating the forum rules. The Serenity Prayer comes to the rescue in this case: Accept or change.
Gotta accept the rules...since there is only one governing authority. Anyway, LTR, that moderator you referred to probably is gone by now.
Public Discussion Boards, in some ways, are not unlike the restroom walls along our nation's highways
where you will likely find Idle Babble, Hooey, Assorted Graffitti and etc.
No worries as far as that goes, Tanin. I've kicked myself off..how many??? Four times??? Or was it three? I don't remember, but it was "several" ...LOL. And besides, if I would get kicked off for posting "God stuff" on any board, well, at least it was something I really believe in that got me booted.
Oh...I know, I know, no one mentioned getting "kicked off" or "booted" but me..... I gotta be quicker thinking around here, but I just love those little fighter dudes.
-- Edited by leavetherest on Sunday 3rd of January 2016 09:19:46 PM
For over ten years I had a niggler in a particular AA group. I go to that group because it is both handy and has older-sober members I know.
If this person gets to share after me, then I know he will niggle at me. This is because I am a very grateful AA member and I love my concept of a Higher Power.
The niggler would say things like, "I am not into this airy-fairy nonsense", and then tell drunk-a-logs and how only tough-love was the answer.
Then about five years ago, he started mentioning his awareness of a Higher Power. He still has a niggle know and again at me and my understanding of my Higher Power.
So he is slowly backing off, and the niggles are getting less.
Over those fifteen years, the other older sober members, only revealed to me their thoughts about God in private. All were afraid of getting niggled. I think that is sad.
That's the fear of not-conforming. You can see it especially in groups of people between 5 and 8. As soon as two or three agree about something, regardless how irrational it is, the rest will comply.
I rather stay with my truth, and be left out, than to comply to something that is against my ethics.
__________________
"... unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of recovery." Dr. Silkworth. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 3rd Ed. p.xxix)
For the record LTR, it was Peter that denied Christ 3 times, before the rooster crowed ... Judas was the one that betrayed Christ and pointed Him out to the authorities ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Thanks for your post, Part VI. I'm with you about staying with my truth and be left out, than to comply to something that goes against my ethics.
I have been to quite a few meetings where when someone brings up God and their belief in Him and what He has done for them there have been loud throat clearings and/or coughing and load shuffling noises of feet. It is so disrespectful. This woman that I was talking about reprimanded me for asking after one of our meetings to lead us in The Lord's Prayer, which was our procedure for that meeting. He politely refused. I thought nothing of it and asked someone else. Later she brought it up and told me he was Jewish and said it in such a way that I should have known better than to ask a Jewish person to do such a thing and it made me feel embarrassed and that I did something wrong which I needed to make an amends for--which I did. He laughed and told me that he didn't get upset at all and that "we're good". After that happened, however, I was fearful of asking others to do readings/lead us in prayers because all of our readings include "God". I am not chairing meetings now and will not for quite a while....someone else's concern, not mine.
LOL.....it is obvious that I haven't read my Bible in quite a while. Gotta dust the other BB off. Guess I thought of Judas betraying Christ and related it to me betraying God and had the urge to share "what I don't know" to try and prove what I know. (This little guy would be great with yellow popping on him--signifies egg on my face :)
Hey Pappy....this reminds me of something (everything reminds me of something)..... I kept getting me feelings hurt and quit churches (yep, quit those too) that I attended. So my daughter didn't have much church going experiences. (I know, it's a shame that my selfishness prevented me from seeing to it that she did. But she turned out pretty good --responsible, hard working (has been in the same job for 10 years or more, working on her nurse's degree). She has this forgiveness problem though...LOL! But despite that, I am so glad she is not like I have been and looking to make a better life for herself and not make a mess out of her life like I did mine.
Anyway...back to my memory jog---when she was probably in elementary school, there was a Christmas card laying on the table. She pointed to it and asked, "Mom, who are those three guys on donkeys?" I told her that they are the Three Wise Men. (While not feeling so "wise" myself).
-- Edited by leavetherest on Monday 4th of January 2016 09:49:09 AM
Thanks for your post, Part VI. I'm with you about staying with my truth and be left out, than to comply to something that goes against my ethics.
I have been to quite a few meetings where when someone brings up God and their belief in Him and what He has done for them there have been loud throat clearings and/or coughing and load shuffling noises of feet. It is so disrespectful. This woman that I was talking about reprimanded me for asking after one of our meetings to lead us in The Lord's Prayer, which was our procedure for that meeting. He politely refused. I thought nothing of it and asked someone else. Later she brought it up and told me he was Jewish and said it in such a way that I should have known better than to ask a Jewish person to do such a thing and it made me feel embarrassed and that I did something wrong which I needed to make an amends for--which I did. He laughed and told me that he didn't get upset at all and that "we're good". After that happened, however, I was fearful of asking others to do readings/lead us in prayers because all of our readings include "God". I am not chairing meetings now and will not for quite a while....someone else's concern, not mine.
There are other ways to go around it. You could ask others in a general way, such as "would someone like to lead us in prayer, if so please do." If no one steps forward (so to speak) you can do the leading.
All of our AA meetings end with the Serenity Prayer. Many times the secretary may ask someone to start us of. Sometimes they will do it themselves. Lately, instead of someone starting by saying "God..." we get a load "Who loves you!" and then everybody replies with "God...".
It's quite a reminder of God's love in our life.
__________________
"... unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of recovery." Dr. Silkworth. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 3rd Ed. p.xxix)
It sure is....I have heard "Who loves you?" at some of our meetings too....(very surprising to me that with the varied people we have in there someone hasn't yelled out something besides "God" in response to it).
(This little guy would be great with yellow popping on him--signifies egg on my face :)