Ive been lurking but I thought I might get some insight, experience, advice, whatever... Im 11.5 years sober and for most of that time I have struggled with having a relationship with a Higher Power. Every now and then I feel like God is concerned with me personally but most of the time I just dont think God is involved in my life. Most of the time I just believe that God set this big ball rolling and really doesnt have an opinion about where it ends up. I do believe that prayer and faith do manifest positive things but I just think its written in the the spiritual DNA of existence. Action A + Belief B = Miracle C. I dont feel like God is actually listening to me pray and making any decisions based on what I say. For some reason, even though I think prayer is good, I just dont feel like it helps me because I dont have any faith. Its like a catch 22 where if I believed God was hearing me then I would get the bennefits even though He isnt. I look back on things I believed were "God working in my life" and just think I just wanted to believe that to make this whole AA program make sense to me. Obviously most AAs believe that they are being protected from alcohol by God and without Him we would fall victim to the "mental blank spot" so if your still sober then obviously God is involved. But I tend to fall into this belief that we have built up this necessary belief system which gives us the right mindset and tools to stay sober. Its like we have to forcefully switch our obsession to spiritual living in order to overcome alcoholism and since this spiritual life helps us deal with our twisted emotions and motives then in turn we stay sober and focussed on this life. It wouldnt work if we just switched our obsession to work or gambling because our emotional natures wouldnt be helped and therefore we would drink again. But the spiritual and moral life is condusive to sobriety. But if I believe like this then actually having a personal relationship with God and relying on Him is difficult if I believe its just a necessary element of the formula rather than a true Higher Being personally involved with me. Im not trying to convince anyone of this and really I would love to have someone explain to me why I am wrong and cause me to believe I can have a two way relationship with God. Im not agnostic I do believe in God and I want to believe what most of my AA peeps believe. Im not trying to be some kind of anti-God controversy person or some deep thinking arrogant blowhard. OK well if you read this far I almost feel sorry for you and appologize but if you feel like taking a shot a knocking down this construction in my head please do.
For myself, I believe in a higher power. And it isnt related to any organized religion. Its just what I believe. I was actively involved in the church my family went to. In my senior year of high school, I was the Student Representative for our churchs board. I started to question things, rebellious youth. I started to study religion in general. Now I have developed my own concept of a higher power. And Im very spiritual with it. Spiritually is not religion.
Things Ive learn though have help me. God helps those who help themselves and God answers in mysterious ways are two sayings that I believe in that have relevance in my way of thinking. I dont ask for things when I pray, I just think through what I want to do. My belief system with my Higher Power is that if Im true to myself, move forward in a positive direction, and help those I can, my Higher Power will oversee me and make things go better, or cause a problem in order to set me right. With the answers in mysterious ways are the rewards of my efforts, which may not be so obvious at the time.
Many (if not most) have struggled with the concept of a Higher Power. Faith is a difficult thing to grasp. As we have found the bottom of our demise, faith has all but disappeared. Its the flicker of a candle at the end of a long tunnel. How can I make it through this long dark tunnel Ive dug for myself? As I move toward the flick, I cant see anything in the darkness. But is something helping me move in the right direction, the light draft at my back, the dripping of water echoing ahead of me, the smoothness of the path under my feet... This is what my Higher Power is doing for me. The realization of the little things that help me through the day.
Everyone is different, and concepts vary as much as individuals. Dont expect miracles and you wont be disappointed. Dont worry about being wrong, no one has the right answer. Of course if the Pope is proved wrong, thered be a lot of pissed off people. Learn to recognize the positive in everything, though some may be devastating.
Someday you may come to believe, but its not required. I have a path to follow. I dont know whats ahead. Faith is my walking stick and my Higher Power is my light. How I walk the path makes me an individual. Eventually the path will end and Ill have to reflect on my journey. Only then can I say whether or not it was a good journey.
I have to believe that having 11.5 years of sobriety, something powerful is working in your life! I love what Greg says regarding believing in a higher power. That is of your own choosing...It doesnt have to be God, just something higher than you! (or for you) Whatever is working for you , stick to it. I personally would rather be obsessed with spirituality than alcohol.
"Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell; spirituality is for those who have been there" How true!! Glad you posted! Lani
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"We tend to forget that happiness doesn't come as a result of getting something we don't have, but rather of recognizing and appreciating what we do have. "
Thank you for you very thoughtful help Snopup. What you are saying is sort of related to the poem I just found by searching the word "faithless" in the forum search. I also found a couple of more poems by the same lady that were so good. Anyway you both are reminding me that maybe Im making this stuff to cerebral and should focus more on the experiential.
Incredible first post, Baton and welcome to the board. I am amazed at how well you articulated your complex belief system and the reason for it (or your perceived lack of it). I'm going to have to re-read you post a couple of times and get back to you on it. It does seem like a paradox though, and I'm not sure if I can explain faith, which is by definition, a belief in something that has no explanation or proof. You've been sober a good while, congrats on that and there are a great number of us doing the same (year after year). My questions for you are, Are you happy on a daily basis and do you think that you are living a life that is consistent with your belief system? If so, are you grateful, and who are you grateful to? From your post you appear to be reasonably content with the way that it is (no complaints). Maybe your spirituality is working for you better than you think. Something that is often said, with regards to your comments on your AA contemporaries, is don't compare your insides to their outsides.
I felt the same way that you do, about my Higher Power (who I choose to call God) when I arrived in AA. I never stopped believing in God, always thought that he had the power to make things happen, but like you, didn't think he was too involved in my life. However poor my memory was in regards to all the times I should have died or gone to jail, or been hurt badly and through prayer seemed to always get out those situations with no reasonable explanation except perhaps through luck, or the kindness of strangers. Google "Bob Earl's Eskimo Story" now. The message, in that story, is that God is busy so he works through people. It's a network and a conscious continuum, like AA for instance. If you will, think of us as one organism instead of a group of individuals. If we're all one then my faith IS your faith, and at times when my faith is not so strong (and yours is greater than mine) your faith IS my faith. We lend it to each other, and most times without even knowing it.
I wouldnt say Ive been very content lately but that has alot to do with some problems my marriage had and then the subsequent relapse of my wife after 8.5 sober. She is doing well now and has 6 months. Im finally getting over some stuff that hurt me deeply. Funny thing was when I was going through the most emotional pain I could imagine, after 4 days of laying in bed crying screaming and sleeping it was only when I looked up and asked God wtf do you want me to do that I was able to get up and go to a shrink and then go to work the next day and start to get on with my life. Ive gone through much depression and anger since. Anyway although Im doing well with all that now I still have this alone in the world feeling that was there well before any of that stuff happened. It has been harder to live with though because it always seemed like my very small bit of belief was enough and I could manage to be relatively happy but life has been so difficult lately that this self reliance peppered with some abstract belief in some abstract idea isnt really cutting it. Im very glad to be sober (I dont say grateful because I dont feel Ive done enough service to back that up lately). I go to a good many meetings and work with one sponcee right now. Im also in alanon for the last 6 months and I like it. I feel like Im on the verge of feeling very normal again but that isnt all I want. If there is a way to have a deeper meaning in my life I want it. Ive considered the fact that my anger has spilled over into Gods lap and this could be one reason I find it hard to connect. I also admit that Ive never been very selfless and I like to do what I want to do when I want to do it so the idea of having a God relationship surely threatens that way of thinking. If the 6th step separates the men from the boys then after 11 years Im still Peter Pan. My sponsor says Im spiritually undisciplined and imature. My thing is I do what is in front of me AA wise and family wise and when I dont see anything in front of me I go play basketball or cards or golf or hangout with friends. Maybe thats not really that selfish since I do have the priorities sorta straight. Im just shooting from the hip here though. I figure if you want to know more and you think that might help you give me suggestions then I'll just vomit myself all over the page.
Baton, a relationship with a higher power is like any other relationship. You get out of it what you put into it. I've had a lot of conversations with agnostics and atheists about how it works. The latest one was with a girl from HS that I recently started chatting with. She is a research Dr. at NIH, in radio and nuclear chemistry (she has 2 PhD's) but she's not happy and she doesn't know why. She has a husband, 2 kids, 2 dogs, and a cat. Nice home in the burbs but she gets depressed when she's not Doing something. I'm not comparing btw. She knew that I had been sober since the 80's, involved in AA, and asked me about "The God thing". And I explained our (AA's) HP of your own understanding principle.
She then began to explain how she can't see any proof that there is a God, and that She has been the driving force behind everything positive in her life and that it's been an uphill battle (adopted, alcoholic abusive parents, foster homes, drinking, drugs, quit on her own...) and that she had never asked God's help and didn't need it. So I asked her the same questions. Are you happy with yourself and your life on a daily basis? She said no not really. I asked her does she feel good when she's working? She said yes and that she was going to school at night (going for a 3rd PhD) and felt good about that. And I asked how is it at home, and she said that she just feels kinda inadequate and numb.
Well this conversation went on for more than a month in various emails, and moved into the dynamics of what my relationship with a higher power looked like. She asked "what is it that you do?" And I told her I talk to God like he was a friend and in the room, several times a day. Sometimes very deliberately and other times more like a reflex "God I need some help with this". Gave some examples of how when I exclaimed out loud, out of desperation, remarks like "God why doesn't someone know what I'm trying to find out, and just tell me?" and then the phone will ring. I wasn't consciously asking for God's help. He was like a friend, who just happened to be nearby when I was struggling and he gave me a hand. That has happened way more often then when I deliberately asked him for help. God likes to be anonymous too I guess.
So the Girl asked me, how can you be so sure that it was God that helped you? Why do I need to be sure, I asked? If something works, what' s the problem in not knowing how it works? Well she said, that doesn't really work for me, you know with my science back round at all. She goes on... so I spend more time doubting than I do trying to believe. I told her that it's like watching a movie. There is no belief, only the suspension of disbelief. We don't so much build a faith as we quiet the voice that says "it can't be so".
We talked about way too much to write here, but at the end of the discussion she asked me "what does all that have to do with happiness?" Then I explained the gratitude list and how powerful a tool it was when an emotionally upset person needs to put their perceived problems into perspective. Only trouble is, you need somebody to be grateful to. When I express gratitude to my higher power, I am out of control. I am, without knowing it, turning my will over and a great pressure is lifted off my shoulders and I get that warm and fuzzy feeling (that I only used to get from alcohol) that I'm loved and that I am good. Gratitude = Happiness you can't have one without the other.
"Gratitude unlocks the fullness of life. It turns what we have into enough, and more. It turns denial into acceptance, chaos into order, confusion into clarity.... It turns problems into gifts, failures into success, the unexpected into perfect timing, and mistakes into important events. Gratitude makes sense of our past, brings peace for today and creates a vision for tomorrow." Melodie Beattie
"Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others." Cicero
"As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words, but to live by them." John Kennedy
Nothing is so insufferable to man as to be completely at rest, without passions, without business, without diversion, without study. He then feels his nothingness, his forlornness, his insufficiency, his dependence, his weakness, his emptiness. There will immediately rise from the depth of his heart weariness, gloom, sadness, fretfulness, vexation, despair.
(Blaise Pascal (1623-1662),
I think "Faith " needs to be added to that but loved the quote.
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"We tend to forget that happiness doesn't come as a result of getting something we don't have, but rather of recognizing and appreciating what we do have. "
Thats again SPD. I'll give the old graditude list a few shots. Its like my sponsor tells me just pick a God and go with it. I really hate that idea but I guess I'll give it my effort. I did write down those things i thought were God for me and made an acronym to remember it (PLUM FACT). I wish I could come to rely on God the same way I came to love Michael Jordan. I happened to get the Chicago channel and he kept coming on a wow he was so good and within a couple of years Im diehard MJ fan and want to break Bill Lambiers legs. God should be that easy. Just watch the world, become amazed, love God. It probably is that easy for some people.
Welcome to MIP, Baton. I really loved reading what you have to say on the subject of G.O.D & HP today.
I tend to fall into this belief that we have built up this necessary belief system which gives us the right mindset and tools to stay sober. Its like we have to forcefully switch our obsession to spiritual living in order to overcome alcoholism and since this spiritual life helps us deal with our twisted emotions and motives then in turn we stay sober and focussed on this life. It wouldnt work if we just switched our obsession to work or gambling because our emotional natures wouldnt be helped and therefore we would drink again. But the spiritual and moral life is condusive to sobriety. But if I believe like this then actually having a personal relationship with God and relying on Him is difficult if I believe its just a necessary element of the formula rather than a true Higher Being personally involved with me.
On a logical level this is exactly how it is for me too. I like a little bit of mystery too & not knowing all the answers is enough & quite exciting to me as I love to strive in life & keep imagination. This gives me a little to think about. I don't like to personify God. I think that gets in the way of the whole point. For me, God isn't a person or even a being (unless you take that sense literally cuz I refer to God as a 'there') lol My Higher Power is the sense that I am alive & I live. My Higher Power wakes me up in the morning when I'm ready without my knowledge with or without an alarm. My Higher Power sobered me up everytime I got drunk & healed me when I got sick or injured. My Higher Power is inside me. It certainly is not me or my will. It may run through me but I'm not in charge only responsible or accountable for myself & my actions. I do like 'God helps those who help themselves' though I find this ironic & true all at once. People mostly get what they want if they work for it. That's like stating the obvious so why bring God into it? I think God is whenever good things happen or whenever we're able to make good of anything. I don't think God is creating all the problems we have here or in other countries. I think that's us. If a natural disaster occurs I don't think 'God' did that. It's a sequence of events & conditions though I could call that 'God' too. I suppose I don't think God thinks. I don't consider it a thinking being. I think it's a happening being. Causes & consequences; so in a way, for me, if our efforts & keeping an eye out for good things means that we can believe in & call that God I don't think that it has to matter. It's a context & I like to look for patterns so if that means I can look for meanings in things & call that God well that just keeps me busy. As a human being I always look for meaning, even if it's just about common sense. God is a deeply personal concept for me & simply a question I like to ask or an answer when I can accept. I don't know if any of this makes sense to you. Your post really stimulated me & I wanted to offer what I thought I had as an opportunity to relate on this most interesting of topics but it's come out all askew! I think our 'honesty, openmindness & willingness' makes God happen. It's a good orderly direction. I think it funny that the Big Book says that no human power could have relieved us of our alcoholism but then God works through people!? That's hilarious. I'm laughing because it's all so ironic. I can see how it's true & I can see how it works on a spiritual level & on a mundane level. It makes me laugh & shake my head with joy because none of it matters. We're just here helping each other get through another day & that' s gift enough for me. I don't care about God really (May I be smited down & denied at the gates of heaven Eeek!) I just want to live a good life & for me that's God in itself. It doesn't really matter does it? God for me is a metaphor. A great, big, huge, beautiful metaphor & one of the biggest patterns there is. I'm glad you're here, Baton. I hope you get some hope & stimulation from all our shared efforts & companionship. Keep asking those questions. It's good that you're thinking & you will stay sober 1Day@aTime. You're prob a little hurt with what you've been through lately. Whether you know it or not I think your Higher Power is strong inside you too. Welcome to MIP! I hope you keep coming back & sharing with us, Danielle :)
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Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
