I went to my doctor and explained my thoughts regarding my alcohol use and she said that judging by what I told her there might possibly be some other explanations for why I'm "acting out" the way I do. She referred me to a specialist and his diagnosis is that I suffer from Manic-Depressive illness or Bipolar Disorder as it is now more commonly referred to. The Dr. pointed out that during my "manic" or happy phases I can drink normally without consequence but during my depressive periods I over indulge in an attempt to self medicate with alcohol which as we all know only intensifies and prolongs the depressive state. He said that he's treated countless patients like myself and that the 12 step programs are most likely full of undiagnosed cases just like mine. He says that he's very confident that if I properly treat the Bipolar Disorder I can avoid the extreme mood swings that cause me to self medicate and abuse alcohol. Of course I would have to exercise self control and not see his diagnosis a ticket to binge but he claims that "alcoholism isn't as black and white as some would like us to believe".
So see ya suckers!
I'm off to the pharmacy and then to the bar
All kidding aside, what do you guys think about this?
I wish you luck, Tipsy. I dont have enough fingers and toes to count how many bi-polars I know that are also alcoholics, and found out that the meds, while dealing with the disorder, did nothing for the drinking. So now you have a medical/psychol. explanation to fall back on. For your sake, Tips, I hope he's right. I worked in a pretty intense rehab that was has a waiting list a mile long, and it was full full full of addicts and alcoholics that were diagnosed bi polar. My feelings are that oft times, alcoholism is diagnosed as bi polar because, yes, there is much more to alcoholism than just the addiction itself. Much much more. It's an ailment of the body and the spirit, Tips, and there arent enough meds in the world to heal the spirit. I hope with all my heart that you live. With love, Wren
__________________
"Never argue with an idiot... They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience..."
By the by, Tipsy, this doctor is going by what you have told him; ie: your perception of things. Did he administer any psych. tests? Pretty hard to diagnose bi-polar just on someone's word ( I know a few people who faked it and damned if they didn't get SS for it.)
And I can guarantee you--I've never known a bi polar, non-alcoholic person, sober or drunk, who pooped their pants at their spouses parties.
I'd get a second opinion. I bet if I went to enough doctors with enough stories, I'd get a diagnosis of immaculate conception. Make sure your doc signs a paper promising your wife he'll cover the funeral expenses if (when) you die from your undiagnosed non-existent disease.
__________________
"Never argue with an idiot... They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience..."
In my experience, medical doctors have a horrendously poor track record of diagnosing alcoholism as anything BUT. To say its alcoholism is to say that THEY can not treat it.
I hope in your case, that the doctor is right and is not setting you back or placing you in further danger.
If at any point, you do still wonder and want to stop, we (the fellowship) will always be here for you. Its that sort of program.
Confusing and baffling......that is alcoholism. Curious to know how much was said at that visit. It would seem even if you are bio-polar/manic depressive......or the more reason that alcohol would not be a part of the scheme of things. Don't know for certain if AH REALLY went to Mental Health facility a few years back. What was told me is that HE DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM.....of course, those words came from his mouth as he handed me a card to contact a professional counselor there. Even went as far as to say he would pay for my treatment! In previous posts I have already stated all the physical problems he has had since.........and those WERE NOT YET ENOUGH TO STOP CONSUMPTION!!!! Heart meds prescribed after the heart attack.......he once said they were too so he doesn't even take them. Would rather risk his life for alcohol rather than do what his doctor says. Even if he did, it is stated clearly in the meds literature that it dangerous to do so. Also, if you've not heard/read/seen her bio. movie......Patty Duke (Astin) the movie star is a supporter of manic depression. She was one of the first to bring the subject to national attention. Her life was HELL. She drank ect. Might be smart to look further into the subject before treatment to make certain alcohol can be consumed with meds. (Cannot remember for certain.....but I "think" I read somewhere doing so can be lethal.) It could also be helpful to do some research to find one of the top experts who treat this. Even if the meds and alcohol could be taken togethor.........remember that the alcohol would still be contributing to mental imbalance. Hope you continue to post your progress..... Always, always.....hoping for the best for you.
Maybe you could go to meetings during the depressive times and just drink normally during the happy phases. That way you can collect a lot of one day chips and get a lot of attention. Also, I'd try consulting a MENTAL health professional. Those metal health professionals are a bunch of quacks. Mike
I am mildly bi-polar and have ADD, both of which can contribute to alchoholism according to medical experts. Guess what? I'm still an alcoholic, regardless of all the contributing factors.
I can get all the analysis and treatment I want for the former problems, but, because I have them, I am therefore, and always will be, an alcoholic as well. Part of the treatment of these other afflictions is to admit that I can't drink because I am bi-polar and have ADD.
Makin' any sense yet old pal?
(PS. One of my old family practitioners (a retired MD) just joined AA this year....no bull sh-t).
(PS.PS. I am not on meds for my problem, but I have a sister who is, and her doctor has told her that, under no circumstance was she to mix alcohol with the drugs he prescribed for her.) (Sucks, huh?)
-- Edited by Sick of being sick at 21:45, 2007-05-06
-- Edited by Sick of being sick at 21:46, 2007-05-06
I have lots of troubles and am a complete whack job- always have been. But aside from my alcoholism I function at a pretty OK level.
After reading all of this my take on it is: if you're bi-polar or whatever rather than being an alcoholic then you should have no trouble dealing with your medical/psych issues and not drinking.
My daughters great grandmother (my ex's grandma) is a long time AAer and historically has managed to use the system to create excuses to get cough syrup with codiene, valium, etc... It's crafty, that alcoholism.
Every once in a long while I catch myself twisting things around and picturing me sitting there listening to the Pogues and having a pint. That'd be grand, but I already know that no matter what anyone tells me, I never had "a pint" in my life, and I never will have that luxury.
I'm very cautious listening to anyone that tells me I'm allowed to drink or could be allowed to drink. My M.O. is to err on the side of caution and everyone comes away pretty alright.
Tipsy, Let's just say for the moment you are bi-polar, would someone who is not an alcoholic look for so many excuses to drink? And if the response to that is "it's the bipolar that's making me look for the OK to drink" well, then have you developed drinking now as a coping mechanism for bad times?
I seriously doubt a pill will magically make you stop craving alcohol. If it does help and you can fix the problem, what will it hurt to experiment with sobriety while going on the medication and starting to see a mental health professional regularly? If you have to drink during that time, is that alcoholic behavior? If you're not an alcoholic, can you simply not drink for a while and see what your impulses and cravings are?
I agree with someone else's suggestion here to get a second opinion (by another mental health professional). When I first started experiencing Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, doctors didn't know what it was or what to do. I learned that the only person that can heal me is myself. Doctors can help, but I'm responsible for the outcome. I went to several doctors (not just two) and I kept searching because I knew what I was feeling was not a figment of my imagination. If I'd simply listened to the first doctor I went to, I'd probably still be on medication . . . only it couldn't be the same pain meds prescribed because those were recalled shortly after I was put on them . . .
Tipsy, what would it hurt to get another person's opinion?
Is it a big gamble to trust this man you just met? Having a degree in psychology doesn't mean he's going to have the correct answers. And I'm NOT anti-doctor and I'm not anti-western medication, but I am pro-self-responsibility.
Alright, now I'm going to post this and reading it again so that I can remind myself what I'm supposed to be doing for myself too.
Thanks for being honest here Tipsy.
Keep coming back and let us know what you are choosing for the day if you would like to.
I can think of about 4 friends off the top of my head in AA who are bipolar, and one who is schizophrenic; of course there is a possibility that their alcohol issues are actually a symptom of their mental health issues, but there is also a possibility that they have been dually diagnosed for a reason, and that their alcoholism is something that can't be treated with lithium.
I always go back to this: if it's a problem for you, it's a problem. If God, Jesus, Buddha, and Barbra Streisand come down on a flaming pie and tell you "Go ahead and drink, you're not an alcoholic, you're just bipolar." and you still feel out of control when you drink even if you're taking the medication which you have been prescribed, you have a problem and ought to do something about it.
Personally, I feel it's irresponsible for a mental health professional to make that determination, but that's just my own opinion, I've been known to be wrong here and there
I could probably go out and find MANY doctors who'd say I'm not alcoholic. If you are relying on others to tell you this, then you will never get step 1, which is very evident.
or so I thought, but I've been doing a lot of thinking these past few days and I realize that it didn't hide anything from anyone except me. People around me would have to have had the eyesight of pro-wrestling referees not to see that my self confidence was diminishing, I was awkward and uncomfortable in social situations when I was sober, I seemed fragile and like I didn't have a grip on things...I appeared beat up and scared. I know they saw it because in retrospect I see that they treated me differently. My superiors at work didn't have faith in my abilities, my friends and loved ones talked to me like I was a crazy person who they didn't want to upset, people wouldn't look me in the eye because I couldn't look them in the eye...the only one who was fooled by my big bar stool plans and my booze filled bravado was me. I thought I was fine because I could go to any social gathering and after chugging a few doubles I could have everyone in hysterics. And when I was drunk I could walk up to the most beautiful girl in the room and charm the knickers off of her if I chose to. I swear to god that this is true, when I would look in the mirror at the beginning of the night and didn't like what I saw I used to think "I have to down a few more so I get better looking" isn't that the stupidest thing you've ever heard?
Anyway the point is that I was a wreck and everyone saw it but me.
Day 4 and my brain hurts from thinking too much...and from a lack of vodka.
Well alrighty then! Let's hear it for the doc who told Tipsy what he wanted to hear!!!!!
My sponsor (who is bi-polar, by the way, and over 25 years sober now) told me God gives everyone the right to commit suicide, whether it be quick, or slooooowly.
I highly recommend you get back out there and try some controlled drinking during your manic phases, then come back and share your experiences, okay?
I don't think you are even close to being done with your drinking career, my friend!
__________________
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguements and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
~Herbert Spencer
This took place over an extended period of time and yes there were plenty of tests done and I met with him on Friday to discuss the results. Secondly, it wasn't what "I wanted to hear"...who goes to the doctor hoping to hear that they have a biochemical brain disorder? I please point out where I said that I completely agreed with the doctors diagnosis? I found it a little shocking and I wanted to share it with you people because you have more experience than I do...I just wanted to hear your opinions and thoughts. I didn't expect anyone to take offense.
I also think it's important to state that I did indeed tell my doctors every single detail about my drinking that I could think of. The reason I made the appointment was to see if the medical community had anything that might assist with me quitting drinking, in conjunction with a 12 step program not in place of it.
I really dont understand you people, you do everything that the "big book" says not to. You're judgemental, you're hostile and intentionally hurtful, you're arrogant, stubborn, ridged...
I think you folks need to do some serious soul searching. You might want to ask yourself a tough question or two...like "Do I go on this message board to share my experience, strength and hope or do I go on to belittle, criticize and build myself up by tearing others down?"...some of you ought to be ashamed.
I'm not a bit ashamed Tipsy. My stomach was tied up in knots most of yesterday behind this, and I said what was in my heart. I've "seen" you sober, and how happy and open you were, so I've had a basis of comparison.
Go back and read your post, Tips. It gave us a very limited amount of information considering what you just shared with us. You might also look at how you ended it, I'm off to the pharmacy, etc. How can you expect me to not get knocked back when I read a post that says it in that manner of humor? A disease that kills, and you're post made it a big joke.
I've said it before----if nobody cared, you'd get no response. We respond according to how we deal with this on a personal level, and since we are all sitting here reading a post that we're relating to on a very deep level, and you're making jokes about it, well, shit Tips, you got a response. This whole thing makes my heart ache. I don't want you to be one of those that goes out and dies behind this, and I dont imagine anyone else does either. And sometimes I get the message from you that you don't care, Tips.
__________________
"Never argue with an idiot... They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience..."
My sponsor has left plenty of scar tissue on my keister, and that has been a huge part of my being sober almost 17 years now.
You see, I was one of those hard headed alkies who could rationalize with the best, whine, sit on the pity pot, blame everyone else, look for an easier softer way, and manipulate the best of them.
If I didn't care, I would not have taken the time to post to you, I can assure you!
If you want sugar-coated, please let me know and I shall refrain from responding to your posts in the future, okay?
__________________
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguements and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
~Herbert Spencer
Hi Tips, I appreciated the tone & joviality of your post & I know you didn't mean to cause any harm but after what we've collectively been through & knowing what we know now & coming to learn more about the 'isms' of alcohol I can well relate to the disturbance you caused amongst us on MIP. It's a healthy concern yet hearing someone wanting to actively play with fire can make some sick to their stomach. It's a scary thing, Tips & people will talk from their hearts. We're used to being honest & sometimes it's tough love that works because we don't want to feed into the illness if it's there. You've admitted alcohol causes you great distress many times & we know that once we've crossed a threshold it's pretty impossible to turn back. That's where we find the acceptance to accept that we're alcoholic & are humble enough to learn this other way of living life on life's terms. 'To accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can & wisdom to know the difference.' Like what has been said, we can recognise in you where we've been & we're trying to save you some hassle but some of us are so stubborn we have to go back out there again to try it on for size (again) It takes all levels of bottoms. If you go back out & try some more then simply remember the words you asked for from us & maybe something will register. It's a human trait to look for evidence by our own experience. Keep an open mind. No one wants to label you or encourage you in making anything worse. As for alcoholism being black & white, maybe I'm still new in recovery, but my experience has been it's anything but. We like to simplify our complicatedness by following a program that helps us to clear our consciences, clear the wreckage & learn to live a life that is 'happy, joyous & free' without alcohol. It's a gift we're offering & it's always here for you. Good luck in whatever you choose to do. There's no pious judgement here. When you can perhaps accept a little more in the future you'll be able to come back & read the love between the lines. Take good care for yourself, Tips & let us know how you're doing ;) Danielle x
__________________
Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
I'm sorry you feel hurt and betrayed by the responses to your original post. You did ask us what we thought, which (I think) is asking for an opinion. The online webster dictionary defines opinion in the following way: "[A] belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."
The truth is you didn't give us all sufficient information to share our thoughts about your situation in its entirety. Compare your first and second post--the second paints a completely different picture. Also, I think ending with a joke about going to a bar after giving information that really does read like you met the mental health professional only once and he made a diagnosis that absolved you of responsibility for your drinking habits and that you are seriously considering not pursuing sobriety . . .well, it's hard not to be concerned.
Someone who has given up drinking for a short time, told his wife to leave him if he ever drinks again (within a year), shares that he's basically scared because he keeps trying to quit but it doesn't work out AND then writes a brief message suggesting that he may not have to give up alcohol AND ends the note with a joke about going to a bar . . . there really is going to be cause for concern about your health if you really are an alcoholic.
Also, it's been said over and over here that the forum is not the same as a meeting, so I don't think the same expectations should be held. 'Though I could be wrong on that one. If any of us did respond in a manner not conducive with the AA way (I'm way too new at this to judge that one), I hope you can forgive us and continue to be a part of this community. I believe everyone here cares about you and your health and all the posts were written with that in mind.
Again, I appreciate your honesty. I really do like it when people (including yourself) tell us exactly what they are thinking.
tsk tsk tip... you want "US" to be ashamed? above are the kinds of things you say to us here.... yet, we continue to talk to you. Thats because we all care what happens to you. I know, I know, we need to treat you different because you might br sicker than others.... So tell ya what... I'll say.... "if I hurt your feelings... sorry". That said, I STILL cant say your an alcoholic. Sooooo...... before you go any further, asking for opinions, feed back, bla bla bla.... look deep inside YOUR OWN soul, and say, "I do/dont (insert your choice) have an alcohol problem". In case you dont know... all the stuff your taking offense to here.... all the replies you feel are too harsh.... thats just folks prodding you to make SOME kind of decision. It's a yes/no question. I am or I aint... I do or I dont.... simple. Once youve done that, you can at least get by all this and begin SOMETHING different. Either way... Ive no hard feelings. Let us know what you decide. Take your time.
Guy walks in a bar with a set of jumper cables around his neck. Bartender says "hey! you cant come in here with those!" Guy says, "look, I just wanna drink". Bartender says.... "OK, but dont you try and start nothin in here"...
Now thats a funny joke about alcohol.
__________________
My warranty on tomorrow has run out. My guarantee on the past is void. Nothing is going my way... and I like it like that.
McStagger, There will be no apology from this gal. Alcohol HAS been a major contributor to the downfall of many. The effects it has had in my life and upon someone I deeply love has been nothing BUT HELL!!!!! Each and everyone of us have come here freely as you have. We came to enhance our own personal recoveries. We have learned from one another. We continue to learn. Some of shied for a while before we began to share some of ourselves. Yet as we did, we began to understand that in doing so we were helping another/others. We also, share,the positive sides/events that recovery (sobriety) has blessed each of us with. Ex. LisaF...the joy she finds on the farm....her animals. Then there is THL/Toby....his love of surf, the dolphins and sharks. Miller2.....his pride of a new grandson. Wren....who brings us her certain wisdom through some very insightful writings. And lest we forget Phil..... his articles about alcohol ALWAYS strike a chord of truth as well as his particular humor always leaves a smile on my face. Some of us may have layed eyes on each other, while most of us remain faceless. Yet through our posts, through the encouragement, through the wisdom we understand we ARE ALL ALIKE. We are everyday humans, with families, jobs, ect. We have medical issues, financial issues, emotional issues. AND WE HAVE EACH OTHER....to support, to encourage, to help us cope with one of the hardest diseases known to humans...... ALCOHOLISM! I would agree with the statement that alcoholism isn't black and white. That is EXACTLY what makes it one of the hardest diagnosis by drs. as well as for the anyone who is questioning whether they have a problem. Phil just recently posted an article about the three stages. It is so sly in its advancement of the human that the human often doesn't realize its damage before it's toooooooo late. It is pretty common knowledge that impairment is a symptom of consumption. It is as well that the brain is pretty much the "master panel" that controls almost everything in the body. Are you aware that an alcoholic's brain actually shrinks below normal size? I HAVE SEEN images! To me it is then understandable why.......so many who drink act and speak in abnormal ways. I have also work with mentally challenged children who for the most part were wards of the state. Most will die much younger than they should. Why? Because they were created and born within mothers who put alcohol and/or drugs as their main priority. These kids had NO CHOICE/CONTROL from the time of their conception through the 9mos to birth over what was "pumped" into their systems. In much the same way as any addict/alcoholic their behavior is eratic. It is hard very very hard teach them some kind of civility or self care. One little boy assigned to my care....was fond of country music. Give him a radio, he'd go off in the corner, cover his head with a blanket and one of the most beautiful voices I've ever heard left me yearning for more. One day, however, something "short circuited" and to keep the others safe we literally had to clear the room. I have never witnessed anything like what I saw while working at that facility! So many lives who were robbed of the ability to grow and lead NORMAL HAPPY PRODUCTIVE LIVES. I will never be sorry for attempting/encouraging anyone towards sobriety. Nor have I ever been offended by anyone's input on this board. It is seriously doubted you will find anyone here giving you an excuse to drink. We used every one we could think of. We lived through the insanity already!
Tipsy you come here about every 3 to 6 months with your ass full of arrows. You always claim that this time you are beaten and you are ready to do the deal (work an AA program). Short time later you become abusive then leave in a huff, swearing we're a bunch of bastard and hypocrites who have wronged you yet again. I've tasted your wrath in the past and didn't like the taste so I try very hard not to post in your threads. Frankly you're a prick drunk or sober and I wonder if your mentally ill or whether your an Internet Troll who comes here to get a cheap thrill at our expense (when I was a teen my friends and I would make bogus calls to the AA hot line in the middle of the night) One thing is certain no matter what your problem is, you need more help then you can find here. All we can do is tell you what worked for us. I hope you find the help you need, because with your anger issues and paranoia I fear for those around you if one day you snap. If on the other hand your just a Troll, go bother someone else or just grow up. Bob.
-- Edited by cooncatbob at 09:33, 2007-05-08
-- Edited by cooncatbob at 09:34, 2007-05-08
__________________
Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like no one is watching.
