Hi Seth, welcome to MIP! I didn't have too much of a problem with the "god thing" but I was a Christian before I came into the program... just had lost my faith for awhile there... and gained it back through the program... here's the thing, you say you have a problem with those later steps... but you have no real concept or relationship with God... My question is, how did you work step 2 and move on to those later steps with no conception of God? Part of step 2, "came to believe in a power greater than myself" is forming your own conception of God. A lot of sponsors will actually tell you to write down all those things you look for in a friend, and make that your concept of God... It doesn't have to be the Christian god or any other denomination or religion's god, you can use AA as your higher power if you want, because in a way it is a higher power, AA is helping you do what you couldn't do for yourself. And how did you work step 3 without a relationship with God? Step 3 is turning your will and your life over to the care of God, how can you turn your life over to someone you don't have a relationship with? Personally, I think you need to talk to your sponsor about this, go back and rework those steps, and find some way to thoroughly do steps 2 and 3, whether that means calling AA your higher power, or finding some kind of faith in some kind of God, but there has to be some sort of relationship and concept of God for you to do those 2 and the remaining steps... just my opinion... hope I didn't offend you....

  Just open up your heart and your mind and try. 
Just my share at this moment in time.
Later - Jeannie

Hi I also have been around AA for about three years although sober only for the last 16 months. For me the God aspect of AA was always an issue. I first came into AA for a couple of meetings about 20 years ago. I saw the word God on the wall and remember thinking not yet. I did not wish to give up my way of life. I am a self serving alcoholic and a hopeless drunk through and through. I did not seem to have any desire to live any other way and indeed my insanity which had progressed throughout the years whether drunk or sober told me that there was no need to. Being in AA was strange in the beginning and I definitely took some convincing. I believed that God might work for other people and had had some belief that God would protect other people around me from me. The thoughts and beliefs and feelings I have had over the years about my alcoholism ( I have known I was alcoholic since I was 16 years old) have never mattered. The disease of alcoholism and the need to pick up a drink and do anything to do so has always in the end managed to over ride all and any other power within me. Any goodness or was gradually extinguished with the progression of the disease again whether drunk or sober. I have had long sober periods without AA and without God in my conscious life. It has just taken time for me to become consciously aware that God is already doing something for me. I have no power to stay away from the first drink. I have no power to choose to live any other way than that of a hopeless drunk. This is my experience of myself. I had no belief that God could and would if he were sought. I did not know consciously how to seek God was not capable of believing in anything outside of myself and my way of thinking and really thought that AA would not work for me. I became convinced over a period of time. I was willing to accept that I was powerless over alcohol I had managed to live alcoholically for a long time but in AA I became aware that I would die a drunk which had never really bothered me until I met sober alcoholics who said that they were enjoying life sober. Being self centred to the core the idea that these alcoholics had a way of living that I had no comprehension of annoyed me. I became willing to ask the question what was God's will for me. I knew full well what my will was and what I was capable of and none of it was good in my mind. What I have recently come to realise is that God was already doing something for me I was sober and it was okay to be sober. I was alive and it was okay for me to live. I was in AA and it seemed okay for me to be there. These are not feelings I had at any other stage of my life and I became consciously aware that God was already doing something for me whether I wanted him to or not. I am so grateful to be able to accept today that I am an alcoholic and that God does for me what I can not do for myself. AA for me is a God given place designed for people like me to have access to a spiritual way of life and a connection with other people on a spiritual level that I have not found elsewhere in my years of searching and various addictions but primarily alcohol being my first love. It is my experience and I can only speak my truth that as I sat back and accepted exactly where I was physically mentally emotionally and spiritually at in AA and sober I came to realise that a Power Greater than me which I call God was already well and truly at work in my life and that each day would unfold a mystery of learning as it should and as I grew up finally. This life I believe is a journey and the beginnings of recovery for me have shown me a new world of which previously I would never have believed possible. I am alive and sober and happy about it. That is beyond my wildest dreams. I have peace and can just be me for today alcoholic and all. That is beyond my wildest dreams. When I resist it is hard and life becomes impossible pretty quick. A willingness to accept my God given right to a sober day is the beginning of my day. Being willing to accept my powerlessness and alcoholic self and AA and the program to live by has just taken time. I had nothing better to do for me tricks were up. I believe that you have already been given a Gift from God. A sober day today and a voice to ask questions of other spiritually minded alcoholics in a forum like this. Where else but in AA could any of us find the human companionship we need to grow spiritually and emotionally. I wish you a wonder filled day.

Thanks for that share, Ness.

Hi Seth! I'm Tim alcoholic. I am also an atheist. I have been in and out of the program for over a decade now trying to stay sober and having the same problem of a higher power. I have found, through this site, great inspiration on a daily basis to remain so now. One gentleman here brought up the aspect of "Good Orderly Direction". Well, I took this and ran with it as my HP. The good orderly direction of the unfolding cosmos of which we are all a part. In order for me to be a concious, living part of that ongoing process I need to be sober; an unaltered conciousness. I want to be a part of it. It is good and seems to be always getting better the longer I am sober. Life is good this way (seven months today) and I don't even consider the alternative any longer. I hope this may help you my friend. Good fortune...Tim

Hi Seth,
I have difficulty with the language as well, but considering this path was formed by people for whom Chrisitanity was and is important, I wouldn't have it any other way. For me, what helps, are these open and frank conversations about how our friends in AA experience the path when they are or are not practicing a religion . . . um . . . keep in mind, I'm super, super, crazy super new to AA (only been around for a little more than a month and sober for 23 days). So here's my religious and spiritual profile (in a nutshell):
I'm not an atheist and I don't consider myself agnostic but I do not have religion and never plan to. That said, I was raised Catholic and went to a Jesuit college for my undergrad (and by the way, the Jesuits really encouraged other religions on our campus and their show of faith . . . we actually had a lot of muslims at our school--an experience for which I'm thankful . . .oh, and they employed a heretical ex-priest as a professor . . . I think those who are truly secure in their religion are not afraid of other's beliefs and find glory in those who are ardently and actively seeking out their understanding of God) and I also attend a Marianist college for graduate school. I left the Catholic church when I was 17 but I actually like religion and even like quite a few people who practice various religions. I even sometimes wish there were a religion out there for me to follow, but all religions (and even the philosophy of Buddhism) seem to be sexist and I cannot believe, will not believe . . . I do not belief that any Higher Power, any Source would subjugate half the human race to the other half, nor do I believe that Higher Power or Source would put us before all living beings. I believe all life is sacred (and no I'm not vegetarian and I don't think that makes a hypocrite) and that the best and most spiritually moving language is the language of love (not the romantic kind - 'though it's beautiful when the two exhist together) backed with trust. When reading a passage or one of the steps that involves a Christian God, I think to myself, for the founders and pratitioners of AA, what did and does this mean? How does this translate to my relationship with something bigger than me?
Like Mr. Chopped Liver, I mean Toby, I take what I can use and am trying not to sweat the details right now.
I do have a faith in a Source and think that religious language provides a variety of approaches to communicate with and understand that source. Ultimately, humans are flawed and our perception of a Source from which we come and to which we go, will be filtered through our very young and limited vision.
It's funny (to me) that I have for years been troubled and dissapointed over my lack of faith until about three years ago when I sustained a bad injury and had (or chose) to re-evaluate quite a bit in my life. Faith still isn't crystal clear to me, but I'm putting it right now in this program. As scary as it is, I'm enjoying my exploration of what faith is to me. As Carol put it, I've been faking it until I make it and it has been evolving.
Words are funny--they set us free and cage us at the same time. Whose to say your experience of faith will be the same as anyone else here who has expressed a clearly defined understanding of faith? I think the beauty of the spiritual practice is the intimate understanding we gain from our definitions that empower our own understanding and life rules. And no, I don't think this implies a humanistic perspective nor does it mean I believe we stand alone. I feel like we are all a part of an equation, a formula . . . I grieve when we loose pieces of the formula needlessly.
Egad! that was more like several ramblng nutshells. I guess I'm muddled on the subject too, but I'd like you to know that there is yet another person to add to the list of people who are not Christian in AA.
Take care,
Laura
P.S. for those that are Christian (and hey for anyone else too) after that candid share of mine, I'd like to add that I respect and value their beliefs! So much good has come from their faith--like AA and other organized supportive groups that exude love.
Hmmmm . . . I guess I look at religions like other cultures-- I may not be of that culture but that doesn't mean I don't respect it, learn from it or even borrow from it. And I'm touched and humbled when those people embrace me with love and not judgement . . . thank goodness since most my family is Catholic.


-- Edited by Laura at 01:57, 2007-03-09

Thanks Ryan. I'm going to have to save that one.

I feel that- for me anyhow- it would be in bad spirits to argue about the validity of someone elses god, the idea of god being based solely on faith, which is neither provable nor disprovable- so I think in the spirit of fairness and sportsmanlike conduct (and to not beat a dead horse and to keep things light and fun) I'll just post up the reverend Reverend James Huber's bit of personal invective (and fricken hilarious humor) on blind faith and organised religion.

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

Good morning planet earth. Have a fantastic day!

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary: She blushes.

John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary: She looks positively stricken.

John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary: She faints.

John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

There is a "Sanitized" version for distribution to your church-going aunt. It replaces "Ass" with "Butt" and "Shit" with "Snot".

* Older versions say "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese." Several people have written to say that the current theory is that the Moon did indeed come from the Earth. I've finally gotten around to making the change.

-- Edited by TLH at 12:08, 2007-03-09

-- Edited by TLH at 12:09, 2007-03-09

Holy Shit!!   Im not getting into this one....lol

You all have a nice day eh....

Here Phil- how about you prod at it with this and see if there's any life left in it?

RyanS wrote:

---

The Jews and our Arab friends refrain from pork after tradition, the beginnings found in a command from God. The reason? Pigs scream and beg for their master when hungry, and when fed, forget their master and will 'turn again and rend him'.
This spirit is 'unclean' and evil in the eyes of the Lord.
Seems to me, same thing now in an age of Grace. Folks hog all they can, screaming and begging in need of mercy, when satiated, turn again to bite the hand that feeds.
Fill in the blanks with pretty 'beliefs' it's the spirit that drives them blind.
I thank God daily for my sobriety and freedom from a destruction of my own making.
I also thank Him for the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, another example of His Grace pouring over, so that all equally, the good, the bad, and the ugly can freely partake.



“Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between prosperity and disaster, between life and death.” (Deuteronomy 30:15 NLT)

---

So I guess the (unanswerable) question is: did the practice come from the writings, or did the writings come from the practice?

 

Not that it really matters to me. They're all good books and little bad can come from working at being a better person. I think that most of our major religions ( I throw in the "most" as a little disclaimer for some items having to do with Jihad in that sixth (and possible purported seventh) pillar of Islam) at their core are fantastic rule books by which to live a good life and to breed fairness and goodness and to deter contempt and dishonesty. Of course it's all subject to interpretation, but you'd have to be pretty obstinate to interpret the core message of christianity as anything but a vehicle for goodness. It's men (well- and women) that seem to always screw these things up.

I certainly do enjoy the bible and it's messages, and hold it in high regard. In fact I have a couple and keep them in a special place on a shelf in my library alongside the ChuangTzu, that Tao Te Ching and the Bhagavad gita, among other books that I hold highly. The bahai Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the Buddhist Tipitaka, the Qur’an have all proven to be too tough for me to even afford the time but given the opportunity (which translates into a ton of time, I suppose) I'd really love to be able to check those out- especially the Qur'an- and see what all the hub-bub is about. Also the Torah of course, but I somehow have a feeling it's going to be a lot like reading the old testament. I do have a copy of the Holy Piby here somewhere but I never did read it and got it more for the novelty. I think Rastafarianism basically sticks along the lines of the book of the Nazarene which is all well and good but time is such a freakin commodity  and  god knows I dont have nearly enough of it.

Well said, Welshgit77!