"In the past 6 months I went to a AA meeting and there was nothing but losers and drug addicts,"
Wow. That's a statement...Anyway... When I was in my early twenties and full of the infinite wisdom that consumes many of us in that deluded stage, my younger brother went to AA. "That's crazy," I said. "It's a cult... they're fanatics...a bunch of losers!."
As I sat and pontificated from my barstool I told my fellow drunkards, "All he does is go to meetings."
A year later it was "All he does is go to meetings and back to school..." and then... "All he does is go to meetings and study abroad... hike the Rockies... buy a house...learn the guitar... travel to Ireland... that's all he does."
Me? I never left my barstool on Harvard Ave. Losers! Crazy AA fanatics!! Hey, maybe they've got something here.
"There is a principle which is a bar to all knowledge, that principle is contempt prior to investigation." or something like that - Herbert Spencer (or somebody).
Right on, Mike. It is easy for any of us, (even those who have been on the inside of AA's doors for a while) to feel that we need to impress our special brand of thinking on the world. One of the earliest bits of advice I picked up from AA was "Don't think too much of yourself." The interpretations/implications of that little quote are myriad and deep(and all of them true).
Old timers around here say, Let 'em run off. The liquor 'll run 'em back. Sure how it worked for me.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer
I heard something the other day: We see the world as we are, not as it is.
Hey he could have a point though! Since I joined AA in August last year I've been losing all kinds. First of all I lost my sense of loneliness & cynicism. When I came in I was well on the look~out for the catch, for the sinister under~tones, for the fly in the loaf. I soon lost that too. The 12 traditions put paid to that. I also lost my ability to hold contempt prior to investigation. Not that I was ever a great one for this as Judgementalism was one of my personal hatreds though eventually I felt a pressure to succomb at times as it seemed to me you were stupid if you couldn't pass judgement upon things. My judgementalism was in most part down to paranoia & I've been losing that too. I'm also losing my arrogance, false~pride & intense self~dislike & fear. There's so much TO lose in AA Thank God! I've been practicing shares in meetings & that's helping me to lose inhibitions & self~doubt. I thought for a long time it was looking like my life was going to come to nothing & all be in vain. I'm losing that too. Beside losing the complulsion to drink I've also lost my compulsion to smoke so feel I've stopped the clock & lost that panic regarding a possibly quicker & more painful death & less time to live & do what I've always wanted. I'm also learning to lose a lot of the negative thoughts I had for the lives I've led before meaning I've lost guilt too. There's so much to lose in AA & everything to gain with a life~long learning & recovery in its place. Thank God! Thank God! Thank God! That's all I can say. Danielle x
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Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
I understand how someone would think that AA is a bunch of losers- especially a young person. There's a lot of people in AA that have been down some hard roads and done some hard time, and some of them remind me of vietnam vets coming back from seeing some really scary stuff, with that hollow look in their eyes and that detachment. I'm sure there's a study somewhere that compares the two, because the two have some similarities. In life there are some loose cannons running around, some real whack jobs out there (I'm related to a bunch of them, and I suppose I am one of them) and they aren't actively seeking acceptance. They live their lives the best they can and they follow their heart as best they can and they dont fit into an easily labeled group and they don't (according to presently accepted norms) buy the right things or wear the right things or do the right things- and they're pretty much just fine with that. Me personally- once I get past the superficial crap and get to know people, I usually find that the sum of their existence amounts to a hell of a lot more than what they look like. One of my good friends is a really great photographer- guy is just a fricken artist. He looks (and acts) like some wild haired nutty professor, and on first glance I'm sure most people assume he's some kind of nutty hippy or wierdo or whatever- but it's just that he really doesn't care about what anyone thinks of his hair and clothes. He's comfortable. Turns out- after knowing him for ages- that he's really well respoected in his field and has published several books and is contracted by some major league magazines to shoot for them. Go figure.
I have another guy I met ten or twelve years back that has hair down to his ass, tattoos covering both arms. A really nice guy though, and back then when tattoos weren't the new Isod he looked pretty radical. He's a british guy and we got to talking and it turns out he was a bouncer at some punk clubs in England that I knew about and we'd talk for hours about punk bands from the seventies. We also had ,martial arts in common- and after knowing him an age he finally told me that as a kid he'd been given the choice of prison or the military and so he'd chose military and ended up being in something that is like our airborn/special forces. Then later he was a shotokan karate guy until he got his butt kicked in a match by a muay Thai kickboxer, and then he trained Muay Thai for a while and ended up doing 20 odd professional matches. And the kicker- the kicker is that when I met him he was working closely with the Dalai Lamas people when they came here to speak. This radical looking tattooed guy with hair down to his ass turned out to be one of my closest freinds and is just the gentlest, most kind person in the world and a great guy to be around- hilarious man and loads of fun. Look not only aren't everything- they aren't really anything.
I can see how a young guy would think we're all losers for a variety of reasons. I know it's not true, first hand- and I hope those people who look at AA and think we're a bunch of losers get to a point someday where they can hold off on their final judgement until they've got some firsthand, valid information. And I'm not going to judge them for it- they have a right to think and say what their opinions are- but I hope also that (given the fact that they went to a meeting in the first place) when they do need AA and if things do get bad enough for them to try it again that they can put those petty first impressions aside and focus inward instead of outward. just my .02
Looking back over what I've written, I'm guessing anyone could look at that & go 'Exactly, she was a loser & that's why she had to go.' I'll agree. I didn't have the confidence to develop the skills & qualities I needed to succeed in life but I did have the confidence to accept help. This is true for me. I felt damaged from things I'd experienced as a child & confusions ensuing since then. I could be judged as someone inadequate in dealing with my previous life if you or I wanted to be harsh but it's like being back in school & supposing all the cool people are those who just seem to 'naturally' get on with life & not need to admit weakness. That's not fair or real. Looking at all of the people on the planet, none of us are perfect & we're all capable of little magics. Even though I wasn't entirely happy with myself I still managed to experience lots of interesting things & give out loads of love. Isn't a loser someone who continues to do what they've always done & get the same or ever~increasing destructive results? Even then we can still care if only from a distance & wish that they find some contentedness in order to progress in life. Mother Teresa said 'If you judge people you have no time to love them'. Maybe I've touched on some defensiveness & embarressment inside myself for having to reach out to others for help but I've already dealt with that so I may as well forget it. I know life is better & easier now. I can be thought of as a loser if those who care want to think so I don't care. Those who matter don't mind & those who mind don't matter. This doesn't entirely sit comfortably with me as I don't want anyone not to matter yet at the same time I won't expend the energy to worry about it so Win~Win all round!
Dani's self~importantly justified moment Sorry everyone! Dx (lol)
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Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
Oh dear I think I just made dude's argument. My friends are abunch of freaks and losers.
All kidding aside, I think once you let everything go, then you are free to start becoming a complete human being. In this I mean like letting go of the primacy of thinking in fashion and social norms, accepted culture and all that- the extreme being walking the earth with a cross or in a saffron robe with a small wood bowl- but the many degrees between are important.
I very deliberately look up to and envy the people I encounter that seem to not care about fashion or social norms, and instead listen empathically and truly seem to care about what the people around them have to say. In our culture we are taught from a very early age to both to label and judge as well as to conform- to keep it in line. This stifles us as human beings as our expression will eventually have a very tiny range where everyone essentially says and thinks and does the same things.
As I've grown older and matured I have consciously made an effort to be more open minded and to not judge people- and certainly to be less critical of things that I've been conditioned to deem as "superficial imperfections". It's paid off in spades, as I know some really great people that are just outstanding. Many of them I've met in AA.
Sobriety Spell, you said "Looking back over what I've written, I'm guessing anyone could look at that & go 'Exactly, she was a loser & that's why she had to go." I didn't think that at all when I read your first post in this thread and anyway, keeping Toby's thoughts in mind, the difficulties you were having before AA were not the sum total of who you were or are! I'm sure there was so much more to you that was wonderful and now you are strengthening those attributes and qualities!
Ryan said: "We see the world as we are, not as it is." I love this quote and agree with it. A few years back (at an old job) we had a new employee that was just bugging the heck out of me (and a lot of other people). I went into our employee lounge complaining about this person's need to be a smarty pants and butt into every conversation to make sure people knew how smart he was. Well, one of my co-workers (whom I respected very much) told me flat out "we tend to hate in other people what we hate in ourselves." I was annoyed at first but then came to realize he was right. The very things that bugged me about this new employee were weaknesses in my character. Well, I was able to address the problem I had with myself and not make it about the other person and I was actually able to create a good working relationship with him.
Toby, you're thoughts are eloquently written. Even though I agree with you about looks not being good indicators about a person's character/quality, it's hard sometimes to be comletely faithful to this rule. I too have met some amazing people that might appear to be not so interesting or a little scary or maybe even extremely beautiful (it's amazing how often people assume an insanely beautiful person and/or an incredibly sweet person can't have depth and complex lives or know hurt and darkness). It can be so easy to miss hidden treasures of humanity if we don't delve deeper than the surface.
All that said, I was googling around and came across a couple of other message boards for recovering alcoholics that expressed a strong dislike (that's putting it nicely) for AA. I was a bit shocked. Has anyone here encountered recovering alcoholics who consider AA a cult that brainwashes and presents innacurate facts? (Of course, these accusations could either lead back to Ryan's quote or be experiences unique to one or two AA groups). Does anyone know a website that has accurate numbers regarding those who have been helped by AA and other recovery organizations? It would just be interesting to read and better than relying on a nameless posting on a random message board.
Also, and this is where it got weird, there were a number of posts on two message boards that said individuals knew people personally (from AA meetings) that had been stalked, raped, and/or murdered by fellow members; and they purport that those crimes are commonly associated wtih AA. Now, I just think this sounds ludicrous and don't relay it here to ask any of you whether this is the case--it just doesn't meet common sense--however, I wanted to ask if anyone here has ever heard similar accusations. I want to know if they are common opinions to prepare myself should anyone, upon hearing I believe in AA, present these accusations directed at AA. I'm probably putting the cart before the horse and worrying too much, but hey, those two are also my weaknesses.
I've run into some people who are sober and feel that AA is somehow "wrong". I've always felt that you take from something whatever you feel is right and leave the rest, and so AA works for me. If I tried to rigidly follow it to someone elses letter of the law, then I'd probably become frustrated and fail. I feel people should do what works, not what is "right". If doing AA by the book works for millions of people than it's a good thing- if someone has to do it a little differently to make it work for them but still gets sober and happy and productive, then I also think that's good.
On the other thing: strikingly beautiful people have historically been a let down for me. And some really scary looking people turned out to be really scary. I've taken my lumps figuring that one out. Live and learn.
The internet is the worlds greatest clearinghouse for misinformation.
well that thing about being stalked, ect. it says in the big book something about "intuitively handleing situations that used to baffle us". i was being stalked by the scary new guy (this was years ago). i walked into the meeting after having the "stalker "surprise me in a darkened doorway, so upon entering the room i said "hey, the new guy is stalking me and im freaked out" so the biggest scariest guy in the room says to the new guy when he comes in....." hey! bottom feeder! leave her alone or i"ll kill ya!" problem solved. and i have seen those sites on the net that slag the program and encountered many people that also share a negative outlook at AA i have never seen anyone stay sober and grow spiritually without it though. just to add "growing spiritually" has lots to do with gaining maturity and common sense as far as i can see........my 2 cents
Thanks Cindy, I suspected such negativity couldn't produce a successful/positve path . . . most of the time. I just wanted to put it in perspective with the experience you (as in the members here who have been attending AA meetings) have had dealing with such mentality. I've had to deal with freaky characters (as in a stalking case and harrasments) before--they're everywhere . . . especially bookstores and libraries for some reason . . . two places I have worked in before. Life's full of challenges no matter where we go. :)
Thanks for the rallying love & support for myself, each other & the fellowship people. I really thought I'd let myself down there & wasn't sure if anyone would catch me but it I felt the same love & safety here as i have done in meetings & throughout contact with fellow members in my own time. Thanks. Trust strikes agagin! Speaking of which, in response to the horror stories, of course some of this may be true. Where there are people crime can occur & some really ill people can be drawn to AA as with anybody else. We don't have bouncers on the door or police check our visitors so there's no way we can know if there are any among us who would take their illness involves these traits or risks unless they are shared on. Also, there are some very vulnerable people in AA who could be taken advantage of. In my experience none of the members I've met would dream of behaving in such a way but there are those who are not prepared to work the programme & heal themselves. Alcohol can make lots of people aggressive or warp their behaviour. Those types who are still drinking may be a danger to others but we learn to look after & take responsibility for ourselves & perhaps step away & keep a distance from people like this yet still offer them fellowship to heal. At the same time, sometimes it's impossible to know or to judge. It's recomended that we don't become involved in relationships in early recovery particularly within the fellowship & sometimes there can be predatory people who would ignore this. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are unwell people everywhere but I don't feel any risk in AA. It has an integrity that usually helps people to change their ways & if they refuse to we can be aware of the signs for disturbed people & protect ourselves/each other. Really ill people of this nature usually don't stay anyway & have to be taken care of elsewhere. That's my tuppence worth. Thanks fr bracing the topic Laura & thanks for your support. Yours in fellowship.. Danielle ;) x
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Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
