Religious Freedom

Phil · MIP Old Timer

Religious Freedom

Laura · Senior Member

Thank you Phil for sharing this.

I do have difficulty with some of the languaging (i.e. God as we understood Him) and it's good to know that people who particpate in AA are open to other people's understanding of a higher power. I am open to another person's interpretation of God (if different from my own). It helps to know AA members are likely to not expect me to interpret the spiritual language the same way as they do.

RyanS · Senior Member

Freedom, shmeedom. This gets beat into everyones head, and it sounds all cute and pretty on paper, but look how it works out in reality. The original purpose was in no way to keep what you believe to yourself, but to not base a group on any single creed and get locked into inevitable doctrinal bickering. Anotherwords, remember the primary purpose of the program.

The way it actually works nowadays, is everyone tiptoes, goos and ahhs, don't wanna hurt any feeeeelings, if someone goes on about buddhism, homosexualism, or zena the warrior goddessism, but mention Christ, and the grace that started this program, and watch the sparks fly.

And watch people stumble around in a hall of mirrors.

-- Edited by RyanS at 09:04, 2007-01-30

Phil · MIP Old Timer

Howdy bud....

I agree with you Ryan.....

However...I hafta go back to the basics....

And the freedom to choose......as an individual....

Without pushing my beliefs onto others....whatever those beliefs may be....if any...

Its a "Keep an open mind Thing" :)

amanda2u2 · MIP Old Timer

This is like anything else. We each have somewhat different ideas about everything, except for one thing - we all want to find something that works better than drinking does.

I don't like hypocrits either, who want freedom for their own view, whether anti-Christian, or pro-a-cerrtain -denomination.   I have been attacked for expressing my views, but the rule does not prohibit expressing our views. The rule is about expecting others to agree with us, or practice spirituality in a way that any one person or group dictates, whether that be Buddhism, Zen, Zoroastianism, Wicca, Judaism, Catholicism, Bahai'i, or atheism.

For me, I also reserve the right to respect my own old understandings of God, as I learn and grow, and to continue to be open to new understandings.   I was not stupid for the beliefs I used to have, nor have I come to the point yet where I know all about God and Creation. If my own previous understandings needed to change, and I'm busy discovering new undersgandings,,, and I share my understandings, and listen....   I have no time or energy left to tell other people specifically what they are 'supposed to' believe. It's part of the journey to constantly 'come to believe'.

God bless you all,       (whoever He is, in His own way and time, and not just the God in my box of understanding),

amanda

psychoktty · Veteran Member

My two cents...

I agree with both sides of this as to how it actually manifests in meetings, the positive and the negative. Just had a business meeting where we voted to use the Serenity Prayer instead of the Lord's Prayer to close meetings. The votes for 'yes' were overwhelming, so I see it as being a manifestation of the group conscious. But likewise, you see people tiptoing and you see people proudly expressing, and I don't mind either one.

The point I wanted to make though, was that walking into a room full of people who beleive differently than you do and finding yourself learning something from them can be a powerful lesson in acceptance, which is from what I understand, the key to all of our problems today It can strengthen your personal faith, relgiously affiliated or otherwise.

Laura · Senior Member

As someone who isn't Christian, it's important for me to know that it isn't a requirement to believe in and follow Chritian doctorine in order to be apart of a group. It's important for me that a group I may be going to for help isn't going to tell me I have to interpret religious words in a way that would conflict with my belief system.

That was all I meant when I wrote my first reply comment. I have friends who practice a variety of religions--Christian, Chatholic, Buddhist, Jewish, Wiccan, and Rastafarian. I enjoy the company of people with love and strength which they may express with religious language/belief that I do not necessarily share (or agree with)--I don't want someone who has a great love and passion for Christ to tip toe around me. If their devotion is sincere than the love they share through and with Christ is beautiful. That's my understanding, anyway.

If I'm going to be open to the support of AA than I have to know it's not required of me to change my spiritual philosophy--even if that's a possible outcome of the journey.

-- Edited by Laura at 16:13, 2007-01-30

Wren · MIP Old Timer

Hi Laura. I think your understanding is right on. As Amanda said "came to believe" in a power greater than ourselves. We, most of us, had a spiritual awakening upon sobriety (or before). (I was just clinging to sobriety in the beginning with no belief system whatsoever.) That doesn't mean that we don't continue having them, in my opinion. In over twenty years, I have never attended a Christophobic meeting, at least not overtly. I've no idea what is said once people are talking amongst themselves, but as you said, the different faiths that walk their talk Im more prone to hear than the hypocrits. Christ is about love, compassion. I'm openly pagan, and I have never had any repurcussions for that belief within AA. Perhaps I've been fortunate, living on the west coast my whole life. When in the meetings of AA, all I refer to is my Higher Power, and that's my comfort zone. When others share their feelings about their Higher Powers, it's the content I'm listening to, not the "names". I'm there to hear the miracles that Higher Powers bring, and who am I to decide what is valid and what isn't? I only know what is right for me. And you're right on about the outcome of our journeys. I've seen enough around the tables, and outside the rooms, to know that I cannot predict where I'll be in the future, as I consider my spirituality to be open enough that if a new experience enlightens me, I could very well be saying mass on Sunday. The God of my understanding reveals Him/herself not within the confines of our limited imaginations, but openly and without boundaries, I believe. Your post was well written, I'm glad you shared this with us. be blessed, Wren

TLH · MIP Old Timer

At my homegroup they recite the Lords Prayer at every meeting. I'm agnostic but don't really care, but I could see how this would turn some people off and I've kind of wondered about it here and there. I personally hold beliefs that are closer to Taoism or even to buddhism than to christianity, and I can totally see how reciting the lords prayer at every meeting could be interpreted as shoving christianity down someone's throat.

I prefer to think of it as a neat little poem, the same as I feel the basic christian beliefs are a pretty decent philosophy just like buddhism (minus the variety of rules and dogma that the various churches have pushed upon their people).

I've spoken to a LOT of people my age and younger who have the hardest time with the higher power part of AA.

RyanS · Senior Member

Kids have a hard time holding on to anything nowadays. Anything goes. Romanticise how things are done somewhere else, when over there, people are people same as here. I'm sure in India some kid is hanging out with his buddies making snide remarks about hypocritical hindus.

Step up to the buffet. And watch 50 kids stumble in, watch 49 stumble out, back to their buddies garage to fire up another dubbie. But, hey, they didn't get their feelings hurt, and they can believe in mickey mouse if they want.

Only problem with change and different ideas is the motives and forces driving them. We've taken a strong, family-centered country and torn it down around us like a drunk on a spree. Run about molding society into grotesque shapes, don't like what we end up with, try another way. Like the drunk, loving the liquor but hating the results. From rebellion against parents as the simplest example. Rebellion for the sake of rebellion has severe consequences. Chaos and destruction among them. Not one side or the other, I ought to go look in the mirror, enough of my part to bother over. Our choices have consequences, the freedom to make a choice has warped into a demand in society for freedom from consequences. I am free to go get drunk this very night, if I so choose, I am not free to choose the results if I did.

Speaking of hypocrasy, I'm kinda like that proverbial Big Book business man lolling in the florida sun right now aren't I?

Believing stuff alone and being good enough did not sober me up. Recognizing and recieving what was already done for me did, I will spend the rest of my life making choices and hopefully more and more making decent ones to recieve better consequences than I found for my old behavior, while acknowledging the Source of the power to do that without apology. Thank God for people who do not have amorphous, vague ideas and purpose, and who understand that open mindedness used to mean teachability, or I would still be lost, torn in a million directions at once.

Whatever we believe, the experience (not awakening) that sobers many of us up is that moment where God is either everything, or nothing at all. I feel if I had sought comfort and self justification over external truth and turned to the right or the left, I would have had a really nifty 'awakening'. Things in those woods that bite. And lots of things are higher powers. My boss is a higher power, he signs the paycheck I pay my bills and enjoy what lifestyle I do. Alcohol was my higher power. Lock, stock, and barrel my golden calf.

So whatever you choose to turn your 'i am' over too the care of, be sure of the direction it's taking you.

Sick of being sick · MIP Old Timer

Been watching a lot of Dr. Phil lately?

TLH · MIP Old Timer

RyanS wrote:
Kids have a hard time holding on to anything nowadays. Anything goes. Romanticise how things are done somewhere else, when over there, people are people same as here. I'm sure in India some kid is hanging out with his buddies making snide remarks about hypocritical hindus.

True. A lot of kids have a hard time of it these days, but I think as much because so much hipocracy is demonstrated to them on a day to day basis by cultural, religious and political figures (as well as other people who loom large in the public eye) as for any other reason.

Sick of being sick · MIP Old Timer

"In dwelling, live close to the ground. In thinking, keep to the simple. In conflict, be fair and generous. In governing, don't try to control. In work, do what you enjoy. In family life, be completely present.”

"Do not conquer the world with force, for force only causes resistance. Thorns spring up when an army passes. Years of misery follow a great victory. Do only what needs to be done without using violence."

-Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching (written approximately 500 to 600 BC)

timverton · MIP Old Timer

A couple of brilliant and timely quotes there Dan...Tim

Laura · Senior Member

Thank you Wren,

It's good to hear about your welcoming and open meetings that you've attended. One of the beautiful things about our country (made up of so many people from all over the world) is the diverse spiritual practices and philosophies we share with one another. Based on this web group alone, I'm building my optimism about encountering (at a meeting near me) a diverse group of people with diverse perspectives; people who will not judge my own philosophical/spiritual perspective. I feel like I'm pretty solid when it comes to my intellectual knowledge of my belief system, but truly knowing it/living it is another thing altogether, but I know it can happen. It's interesting to observe here the diverse perspectives of each individuals journey toward sobriety--for you, an awakening was part of the process, for another, the experience. I was just reading old posts and although I can't remember who posted and responded to a thread (or when . . .sorry), but some of you spoke of wanting and loving to drink, even still today--I mean really loving it. I connected with that. I suspect my journey toward sobriety will best be described as a struggle and any sort of higher power help maybe something like a devine hand holding mine (in some way's a child's hand) and walking me across the street . . . every single day.

Thank you all for being here, sharing your experiences, and your opinions.