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God and Science
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God and Science

 

It has been estimated that Man has been on earth for 200,000 years its not the purpose here to establish that as a scientific fact but to give a fairly good recognizable frame of reference. Perhaps my direct ancestor stared at the moon with his dog Fido little knowing that 200,000 years later an ancestor would walk upon that very surface that he could only observe but not understand, Fido barking at the moon has made relatively little progress, his ancestors are doing the same thing, still barking at the moon.

 

What remarkable progress man has made. From that span till only 7,000 years ago, we really have little or no idea of what man was doing or thinking. Thats when writing was developed. We do know from early writings that man had recognition of a Higher Power. This I guess developed over 193,000 years. Did man at that early beginning have a perception of a higher power or did it evolve like science? St. Paul said, actually the founder of Christianity, a Greek, Jew, The Moral Code is written in the hearts of man. Perhaps we always possessed that quality which separated us in our uniqueness from other created beings. Today the belief of God cannot be proven scientifically but our senses, observations and interaction with others suggests a certain quality both needed for positive interaction with others, and peace of mind and that is a belief, not based upon reason but a quality coming from an undefined source, perhaps termed a soul that gives us an intuitive suggestion that a power greater than our self exists, connecting all man, and that quality may be termed Faith, Faith in a God and an intuitive recognition of spiritual principles. What is Intuition ? The dictionary defines it as: A natural ability or power that makes it
possible to know something without any proof or evidence or reason that guides.

 

On that very point reason and intuition both inherent to man differ, concluding with different results. A Quantum Physicist will observe, similar to my own thinking, that the world is a mess, conceding that on  a classical level of Physics and quantum level, human nature is too complicated to analyze only in a general predictive manner, the model breaking down upon preliminary general analysis, simply Too many variables to equate

 

Much of classical Physics was based upon reason and observation on a macroscopic level.. that is a level of easily observable,  carefully reasoned and analyzed and tested. Much was attributed to Isaac Newton and his laws of Gravity and Motion. Quantum physics deals on a microscopic level, an atomic and subatomic level. Conclusions on this level have been proven to conflict in parts with one might suggest human reasoning even common sense.  Simply put, on a subatomic level it was found that particles do not travel in a straight line, but travel in a wave pattern, this is quite important. What was discovered is that proximate wave patterns of similar size crest and trough patterns would cancel each other out displacing particle in an unfamiliar, unpredictable environment dissimilar to those particles where the proximate wave patterns of different size would more uniformly displace the particles in a pattern.. In other words the patterns had gaps, the gaps reflecting the uniformity of areas of no particles. Based upon these observations of conduct of subatomic particles, equations evolved that demonstrated that objects do not have single definitive histories. Based upon this theory of no single histories, the model suggests that space and time are inseparable, a modification of Einsteins general relativity theory, applying modern quantum analysis, concluding that space and time are congruent, a modification to relativity that suggest there was never a beginning or starting point assuming a model of particles not having single definitive histories.  Simply stated, Einstein believed in a static universe a beginning point, a quantum physicist will say, there was no beginning, space and time congruent it always was. A remarkable statement that suggests that no creator was necessary to initiate the universe.. This of course is where the model gets murky. Irrespective of Dick Feynmans equations, developed in the 1940s suggesting that its mathematically possible, based upon no definitive histories of particles, the obvious question arises, and youll find quantum theorists treading lightly on this point. Matter cannot  evolve from nothing a counterpoint. The answer to this by a Quantum Physicist, is that on a microscopic level quantum fluctuations caused by warpage as evidenced today by black holes and other abnormalities caused quantum fluctuations, at initiation point, like small microscopic bubbles that evolved SPONTANEOUSLY. The ones that survived subject to the quantum law of inflation expanded infinitely faster than the speed of light which trucks along at a mere 186,000 miles per second. This reaction is SUPPOSEDLY the initial point in the Big Bang Theory, not only resulting in our universe but multi-universes out there. This would preclude any need for an INITIATOR or God.

 

The biggest stumbling block is that I can concede that Quantum Physics does a fine job in ANALYSIS of matter and its respective laws. i.e. the Laws of Gravity, the Laws of Electromagnetism, The Laws of Weak Nuclear Forces, and the Laws of Strong Nuclear Forces .Stephen Hawking the renowned Physicist from Cambridge University England concludes when they can combine these four laws you will have unified theory and a reasoned explanation of how everything works. Science today tells us we are almost there that M theory, a series of independent theories, is already a good candidate.. How things work in the Universe is  reasoned by whats termed Top Down Theory of working backwards to the big bang theory 14.7 billion years ago

 

The biggest stumbling block is thisyou cannot play football without a ball, less you have 22 players dancing with the stars.. Neither do I believe the theory has proved that space and time did not have a defined initial point nor do I believe that MATTER could be generated SPONTANEOUSLY. There needed to be someone who came along and threw the ball to the players to start the game.. AND that is termed GOD.If I had one question for Mr. Hawking It would be thisWhat do you think about thingsand part B How do you feel about things.. What I found is that how I feel about things can change so quickly generally determinable by immediate environmental influences. That the results of my conduct is far from predictable.. and thats why the world is in such a mess its perfect.. The existence of modern scientific principles and the existence of spiritual principles rooted in our mythology of the agesour dreams and our hopes are founded upon Faith, not Reason.

 

Im am left with something I heard, which comes from the New testament Render to God the things that are Gods .and render to Caesar the things are CaesarsThats good enough for me.. As a Quantum Physicist would say, You are entitled to your own Model Dependent Reality. In my own respective recovery from Alcoholism over the past 41 years, there is a God and only GOD through AA and its respective spiritual principles brought me back from the near death experienced 41 years ago.. There was no reasoned approach. Things were done to me spiritually what I couldnt do for myself. First I survived and then I began to live and then it got better.

 

This is my, and only my quick spontaneous concept of how things work as it relates to my own reality and am at peace with that. I have no questions, they all have been answeredOne day at a time.

 

 

 PS: The discipline of Quantum Physics is a rather diffcult area to explain in a format such as this but I believe I've touched upon the salient points enough to explain basic concept and areas of disagreement...There is no theory that is EVER wrong..It's a reality that becomes acceptable when the variables meet the requirements of the questions asked and are well tested. I do not know enough to discredit objectively...only as it applies to me.and my own model of dependent realism.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't waste time convincing people there is a God. That often turns newcomers off to AA because they get the wrong idea which is that we are about religious conversion rather than sobriety. Of course being in the program I understand now, but I find that introducing them to the fellowship, then getting them to buy into setting forth on a spiritual journey....that is all they need. They will find the God of their understanding if they stay the path. No preaching needed and I am not bothered by atheists in AA who have some other sort of higher power.

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I agree wholeheartedly with not only your philosophy but yoursuccessful acomplished practice...but in my case..feeling slight sense of attack from those of athesistic predisposition, I decided to investigate into the nature of their argument..I found their argument wanting and delighted in expressing my experience...that is what this program is all about..sharing our strength hope and experience to help others...whether my comments helped another..I don't know and it is NOT up to me to know..but only share and turn the results over...Remarks over the past 41 tyears...Has it helped others? who knows but it has sure helped me.

To the first comment..I can understand the professors answer..One needs to learn the conceptual understanding of a discipline before asking an intelligent question relating to any discipline..Try googling it first. Personally I know just enough to satisfy my demands of the discipline to my reasoning, satisfying non interfearance with my conceptual understanding of Spirituality in the aforementioned discipline. They say ignorence is bliss..trained many years as an architect...I don't believe that..(LOL) Any discipline can be mastered if you are in any way motivated and put in the time.

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It's all good amigo. We are a motley crew in some ways. Your ESH is sure to help others and I am sure it already has helped many throughout your long term sobriety.

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Your piece is both fascinating and a wonderful tool with which to present to my scientist friend who is having difficulty with the HP concept.

I`m going to show this to her and see what happens.  I`ll let you know how it goes.  Thank you :) 



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hopefulone wrote:

Yeah, I did admit my question was not bright. That was years ago and I can laugh about it now. And I have told that story many times and love it when people laugh. Laughter is great and I have often been told I have a gift for making people laugh. However, I do disagree about "needing a conceptual understanding of a discipline before asking an intelligent question, etc." Religion is a discipline....if someone doesn't know much at all about religion than asks the question, "Is there a God?" or "Who is God?", I consider those questions to be "intelligent". I have always heard...."the only stupid question is the one which is unasked."

Despite my lack of education, and regardless of who believes what as far as an HP is concerned, I relate to all alcoholics because we all have experiences in just how smashed we can get, how much damage we can cause and how many times we have been in and out of jails and/or hospitals without managing to kill ourselves and/or others. I get in meetings with doctors, lawyers people who are, as far as education is concerned, many many times more intelligent than me. And, after listening to their stories, I do not feel intimated by them and I feel even more similar to them because all their education and diplomas on their walls didn't keep them from doing some of the same stupid things when they were drunk as I did when I was drunk.

(Just for the record, I believe in everyone having the right to choose who or what they believe in as far as a Higher Power is concerned.)



-- Edited by hopefulone on Saturday 4th of July 2015 07:42:43 PM


 Just keep in mind, and don't forget, that God did not establish any "Religion" ... religions are all 'man-made' ... Man came up with the idea of putting a person, knowledgeable in theology, in special robes and various others garb to make themselves feel somehow 'closer' to God than your average person ... Man came up with all sorts of rituals and stuff (other than what is shown to us in the Big big book ...) ...

It is totally fine to participate in any religion of your choice, BUT, we are told, so as to not be misled, we should study 'the WORD' for ourselves ... there are too many false prophets out there (like ole Jim and Tammy Baker, for example, and many others) ... 



-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Sunday 5th of July 2015 02:46:57 PM

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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'



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One could play football with a brick if they are determined enough. Thank God that our Fellowship only suggests that one entrust their lives to a Power Greater than oneself. Trying to be a good person and helping others is a sime enough philosophy for someone like me that works.

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To the above comment the idea of the football is that football is MATTER as well as a brick "creation of matter" is the point. I don't think you get it..but some do.

The whole idea of the theory to its reasoned conclusion ..there is no higher power...there is no God... reasoning there is no afterlife..To people with the ability to THINK..that's a pretty serious idea to contend with..and that's what atheists need to contend with.



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there's a lot of money to be made in Religion and there are those who do in fact...But man is the only living creature who has an intuitive understanding of the existence of a higher power..We know that through the earliest writings... after 193,000 years of no writings.. What was inherited in the pen was man's reasone evolution of observed dependent reality throughout those earliest times..mathematics didn't even exist..no one though about the earth being round or knew that it rotated around the sun..Science if you could call it as such existed in a state of ignorence.

In one book of the Bible..Joshua was fighting the bad guys..He asked God to give him more daylight so he could defeat the bad guys...The Bible tells us that God indeed listened to Josua and provided him with another 24 hours of sunlight. People for thousands of years believed that actually happened.

Science in fact will tell you if God did that..acomplished in physical law by stopping the earths rotation...Everything that wasn't securely tied down would be travelling around the world... at 21,000 miles an hour including the good guys and the bad guys.. So science can bring many things into modern perspective.

But as I mentioned in the above argument..St. Paul said that the moral order is written on the hearts of man..and that's where the deviding line begins..One needs to break open the shell of the myth to get at its edible fruit..or the understandible point that the myth is trying to make..That's where spiritual law begins from the reaasoned laws...Religion does not have a pique with classical physics only with quantum theorists and their idea of a spontaneous universe without the aid of a creator or initiator...COMPREND

I once heard Rev. Ike say "Give Jesus the football and let him tie up the score..To some minds...That's exactly true.."Their own dependent reality..which is indeed valid

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(LOL)... SORRY... But That's not my problem

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Everyone has the right to share their strength hope and experience... If you don't understand and or disagree don't get angry of frustrated...one actually imprisons themself when they do that..One becomes a jailkeeper of what one feels is only acceptable to their own sensibilities.. One may take into account that maybe sometime down the line..something that was expressed, not understood at the time becomes clear.

Not my opinion but my experience.

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I tried to join MENSA, but, for sum reasin, I got rejekted.

(so I joined AA. Got ACCEPTED!)



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Hey Amigo. That guy in your picture looks like he's got good form in his bowling technique. I tried to bowl like that, naked, drunk. People were looking at me funny. Do you think that guy was drunk bowling?



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"there's a lot of money to be made in Religion and there are those who do in fact...But man is the only living creature who has an intuitive understanding of the existence of a higher power.."

My dog thinks I'm God.



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Actually no one has FIGURED OUT in spite of actions from other creatures towards man..what they think?....THINKING is beyond their nature or our current ability by experimentation to understand, to any extent any deliberative process...observable conduct resulting from training is different. We do know that all animals including man have an instinctual desire to eat to survive

there wouldn't be any reason to go fishing (LOL)


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GOD spelled backwards is DOG. So, either my dog thinks I'm God, or God thinks I'm a dog. Now, I'm done thinking. I want to try some naked bowling. Again.



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In AA, they say "your best thinking is what got you here". Amigo, you seem like a good thinker. That's why yer here.



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Glad to see that I don't have the ability to think. I think.

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Under the influence or not I have always or almost never found an alcoholic entertaining I still want to ask the question "What's your point"? and my friends and family use to say "Don't do that in front of him".  What did they mean by "that"?  Act as if you're smart when you only suspicion other stuff which you cannot make real.  God is Science to everyone searching.  Some (many) have received personal responses beyond human understanding of how responses come about which they in time come to believe was or is performed by God of their understanding who is different than mine.  I am a theologian somewhat changed because I am also a recovering Alcoholic with my core attention on the God of my understanding, ancient and cultural.  Akua O ka lani.  Science has no room for Akua, only for their own individual musings.  ....wink



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To say "I know there is" or "I know there isn't" (a God) is saying "I know" in either case. For me - finding the common ground was simple. No one knows, and we all at least know that. It is a choice. Making a choice that allows us to feel peaceful is what we can find an example of here.

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I feel sorry for people who believe that after they die physically that there is NOTHINESS.. "A logical conclusion for a confirmed athiest" Everything just disappears...and everthing that THEY EVER THOUGHT OR DID means and meant absolutely nothing...sought of like dust in the wind...

If there is a God and I firmly believe that there is..and there are dimensions that our mind is incapable of understanding...Then it is imperative, it follows reason, that one must have FAITH...belief in one's intuitive feelings as well as our best reason

Albert Einstein believed that there is a threshhold beyond what we are capable of understanding.. Personally I find studying Scientific theory and its latest offerings along with other religions has increased my faith and opened the symbolism behind the worlds enormous fount of mythologhy.

A child is only capable of understanding in very concrete terms...He or She thinks of God as a big benevolent old man who gives you good things but if you are bad he gets angry and bad things happen.

The PROBLEM those things are so ingrained in our psychies.. That you never lose those elementary beliefs. Most people brought up in western christian religion take that to their graves. In my opinion the Catholic Church in their elemental forms have done a lot of damage...particularly to women...A Woman who has got a divorce because of abuse "which is rampent in today's world" cannot participate in the sacraments (Holy Communion) she is ostracised. This is absolutely silly and cruel.. The Catholic church in my opinion is and has been a very cruel institution historically and today. When one understands NOT TO TAKE CATHOLIC MYTHOLOGY at its concrete or historical level.. Christian mythology ibecomes quite interesting and has many corroleries to Eastern thought.. One can then lose the guilt...and have an opening into spiritual learning...and even put their original beliefs into perspective.. What Catholism has taught me is ethics..nothing more but that's enough

The 3rd Step of AA is absolutely brilliant...It's "the God of our understanding."...What a wonderful concept, its allowed me to stay sober and to explore spirituality for over 41 years now....The 3rd Step is a living step and I merely pass on my explorations of my experience staying sober..In the recognition that my sobriety is contingent on my spiritual well being today.

On the Lighter side
For those who pondered facitiously about my avitar...(LOL) Its an Olympian throwing the discus..."One of the original sports"...Historically all the athletes who participated in the original Olympics participated naked.. I threw the discus in college...One day many years later on AA beach in Florida, in a colorful Speedo, one rather well endowed suntanned goddess in an immodest bikini said "you throw the frisbee with particular style and grace...."What more needs to be said."...Yes at one time I was an Adonis... who through the discus..Today at 72 still not in bad shape 34 jeans.. with whitish blond flowing locks (LOL)

One final note on this subject...DON"T TAKE YOURSELF OR OTHERS THAT SERIOUSLY.

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Amigo, I know what I would have said to that hot chick in the bikini: "hey, you wanna go bowling?"



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