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MIP Old Timer

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The Atheist Way Through AA
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Atheism in AA has come up recently in threads here and at the Alanon board. Here is a nice example I found that exemplifies an important point for atheist alcoholics: God is not necessary to get or stay sober in AA. 

As an alcoholic in AA who does believe in God, I appreciate this important point. AA must be open to all alcoholics, not just those who believe in God.

 

 

August 28th, 2011
01:00 AM ET

My Faithlessness: The atheist way through AA

Editor's note: Marya Hornbacher's latest book, "Waiting: A Nonbelievers Higher Power," explores what spirituality can mean to the recovering person who does not believe in God.

By Marya Hornbacher, Special to CNN

(CNN) - Kicked back with his boots on the table at the head of the smoke-dense room, the meeting's leader banged his fist and bellowed, By the grace of this program and the blood of Jesus Christ, Im sober today!

I blinked.

This was not an auspicious beginning for the project of getting my vaguely atheistic, very alcoholic self off the sauce.

I wondered if perhaps Id wandered into the wrong room. I thought maybe Id wound up in Alcoholics Anonymous for crown-of-thorn Christians, and in the next room might find AA for lapsed Catholics, and downstairs a group for AA Hare Krishnas and one for AA Ukrainian Jews.

But a decade later, Ive become aware that 12-step programs are home to people from every religion, denomination, sect, cult, political tilt, gender identity, sexual preference, economic strata, racial and ethnic background, believers in gun rights and abortion rights and the right to home schooling, drinkers of coffee and tea, whiskey and mouthwash, people who sleep on their sides or their stomachs or sidewalks.

Anyone who cares to sober up, in other words, can give it a shot the 12-step way.  The official preamble Alcoholics Anonymous states: "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.

And millions of people want that and find a way to do ivt in this program. Im one of them. I was, not to put too fine a point on it, a raging drunk. Now Im not.

It wasnt magic; it was brutally hard work to get from point A to B. I do believe Id be dead without the help of the people and the structure of the steps in AA.

But I dont believe in God.

And this can be something of a sticking point when youre sitting in a meeting room, desperate for almost any route out of hell, and someone cites the blood of Jesus as the only way to go. Or when you realize that six of AA's 12 steps explicitly refer to God, a Higher Power or He.

But this shouldn't be a dealbreaker. Im going to make a lot of old-style AAs cranky with this, but its perfectly possible to sober up sans belief in God.

At first that wasnt clear to me. Its unclear to most people because AA has a reputation as a cult, a religion unto itself, a bunch of blathering self-helpers, a herd of lemmings or morons, and it isnt those things, either. Its a pretty straightforward series of steps, based on spiritual principles, that helps people clean up their lives in a whole lot of ways.

But if you are of an atheistic or strongly agnostic mindset, chances are youll walk into a meeting, see the steps hanging on the wall and want to scream, laugh or walk back out.

I tried another tack: I made a valiant attempt to believe. I figured a) these people were funny, kind, and not plastered; b) they believed that some kind of higher power had helped them get sober; c) they knew something I did not.

So I did research. I read every word of AA literature I could find. I read up on the history of half a dozen important religions and a wide variety of frou-frou nonsense. I earnestly discussed my lack of belief with priests, rabbis, fanatics and my father.

People told me their stories of God, the divine, the power of love, an intelligent creator. Something that made all this. Some origin, some end.

I told them I believed in math. Chaos, I said. Infinity. That sort of thing.

They looked at me in despair.

And not infrequently, they said, So you think youre the biggest, most important thing in the universe?

On the contrary. I think I am among the smallest. Cosmically speaking, I barely exist.

Like anything else, I came into being by the chance, consist mostly of water, am composed of cells that can be reduced and reduced, down to the quarks and leptons and so forth, that make up matter and force. If you broke down all matter, the atom or my body, youd arrive at the same thing: what scientists call one strange quark, with its half-integer spin.

And I find that not only fascinating but wondrous, awe-inspiring and humbling.

I believe that the most important spiritual principle of AA is humility. The recognition that we are flawed, that we can and must change and that our purpose not only in sobriety but in life is to be of service to others.

I believe that I exist at random, but I do not exist alone; and that as long as my quarks cohere, my entire function on this hurtling planet is to give what I can to the other extant things.

That keeps me sober. Amen.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Marya Hornbacher.

 
 The Editors - CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism  Belief


-- Edited by Tanin on Sunday 24th of May 2015 08:39:24 PM

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MIP Old Timer

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Awesome!

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I was brought up as a Catholic with 16 years of religious training ...through College..When I graduated I considered myself an extenstenelist...I learned that in Philosophy classes that I minored in..

That's a 5 sylable word that meant to me 50 years ago that I could and would do whatever the F*** I wanted...I neither believed that I needed God in my life...after all I was well educated and a good conversationalist and usually a good moral person

When I came into AA defeated ..my spiritual awakening began when I looked at the steps and saw that my life was unmanageable because I FORGOT to embrace a higher power..When I did, I found a rudder to navigate life.

The wonderful think about AA is we have a third step a "God of Ones Understanding"...THAT part of the third step is absolutely genius..I thought I believed in God..but really didn't..I was just mouthing the words..but I did have a strong higher power AA

It took me 15 years in the program to find a God of my understanding that I could COMPLETELY identify with 100%..I think I designate myself a Gnostic..or a western equivelent of a buddist... The recognition that God is within me.. or as St. Paul said..The moral code is written on man's heart..

Why I have been sober 41 years is that I believe in God... That simple

Why my life is peaceful is that I not only believe in God..but I can trust God...AA has given me an 11th step...decisions are made for me..I find answers and given power to take action.. through this and the 12th step then leave the results to God

Life I find is simple and peaceful when one believes in God.

Those of you who for whatever reason find believing in God unnecessary....I feel sorry for you..you may be heading for rough waters..Don't think with your head ..think with your heart..That's where to find God

(LOL) There will always be those looking for an easier softer way..complicated people who find it impossible to keep things simple....GOD BLESS YOU




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MIP Old Timer

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I suppose I was agnostic when I came in. Even today I still feel my hackles rise on the very rare occasions (in a meeting) that someone dares to mention Jesus. I don't know why that is, but I suppose it means I am not of the Christian faith. None of that really matters. AA told me all I needed was a willingness to believ that something greater than me could help me, and that from that starting point a wonderful spritual structure could be built ultimately putting me in touch with a personal Higher Power that would solve my problem.

There is nothing about AA that leads me to believe that the program will work without some kind of higher power (unsuspected inner resource) to guide me in the practice of the 24 hour plan in step 11. I see some folks struggle to apply the steps as if they were a psychological or self help problem, and they just seem to get more confused as they try and fix themselves. It didn't seem to work that way for the authors of the program, and it was the same for me.

The writer makes a common and misleading error in suggesting the third tradition about AA membership equates to the only requirement for getting sober. Sure you can join the fellowship with any beliefs you like, you can practice any parts of the program you like, or none at all, but if you are not willing to follow the suggestions in the book, I wouldn't be promising you the same results, nor could I sponsor you on a path with which I have no experience.

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Atheists seem to have as much faith in their belief system as ANY person.

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Most athiests find it insulting for you to "feel sorry" for them for their belief system. Would you want them feeling sorry for you that you do believe in God? If a person is agnostic, all the work on helping them "come to believe" in God is useful. If they are clearly atheist...there is a way for them to work the program, stay sober, and utilize nontraditional higher powers. People feeling sorry for them and telling them so is degrading them and chasing them from AA. Just my opinion.

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I have learned from everyone in AA. There are people who are very religious and share how God is helping them stay sober. There are atheists who have ten, twenty years of sobriety and share how they are staying sober. Even people who just come into the rooms share that they don't know what they believe in and it reminds me of me and how it was when I first got sober.
That is the good thing about AA. I can have my own beliefs and others can have theirs. It is not my job to convince others that they have to believe in the God of my understanding in order to stay sober. I have talked to people who stopped AA because they were offended at someone(s) telling them that they had to believe in God to stay sober. This is tragic.

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I'm one of those who feel sorry for people who believe in god. The arbitrary nature and randomness of life must be really difficult for them to reconcile with their beliefs. Good things happen and it's "by the grace of god" horrible things happen and it's "all part of god's plan". I can't help but think that deep down inside they must feel somewhat tormented. God wouldn't save their niece from her leukemia and even the most religious zealot must ask themselves why? Did they not pray hard enough? Did she somehow deserve it? Was it to teach everyone around them some sort of lesson?

Famine.

War.

Rape.

Murder.

Child molestation.

The destruction of our planet.

Any supreme "almighty" being who allows those things, a million other heinous and depraved things, to happen is not a god I'm interested in groveling to.



-- Edited by StillTipsyMcStagger on Friday 19th of June 2015 02:29:25 PM

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MIP Old Timer

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"...Fortunately, A.A. is constructed so that we need not debate the existence of God; but for best
results, most of us must depend upon a Higher Power. You say the group is your Higher Power, and no rightminded A.A. would challenge your privilege to believe precisely that way. We should all be glad that good recoveries can be made even on this limited basis..."--Bill Wilson, 1950

I don't mind a spirited exhange on God vs. no God in AA. Such a discussion is also fine in an internet discussion forum. That's what discussion forums are for. And people in and around AA have been having this discussion since before the Big Book was written. 

The main thing to remember is that nobody in AA can keep anyone out of AA for being an atheist. Atheists are welcome in AA. Atheists can get and stay sober in AA and they can have recovery from alcoholism, same as the theists do. Theists are not superior to atheists in AA. They are equal.

We are a diversified bunch of drunks. With lots of differences. But there is only one class in Alcoholics Anonymous: alcoholic, recovering. It's simple that way.



-- Edited by Tanin on Friday 19th of June 2015 08:04:31 PM

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MIP Old Timer

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I must say you are looking well Tipsy:)

Your comments on the bad things god seems to allow resonate with me too. I read a bit about the ngostics and they seem to have an approach that makes sense of all this to me. They were considered heretics back in the day and a ot of their material was suppressed, havinf only recently been rediscovered. What made them unpopular with the regular church was their belief that everyone could have their own personal and direct line to god. This cut out the middlemen (the bishop) so wasn't too popular. They also believed that faith could develop through experience, which is how my faith grew. Then they have this idea that there are two gods, the Godhed (the good guy) and this other bad little bugger that they dont talk about and he's the one that causes all the trouble.

In the two years my wife was ill before shes died, I couldn't believe that the god of my understanding that helped me survive the tragedy without thought of a drink, that gave me the strength to do what needed doing each day, was also causing the problem in the first place. So I reckon there is this naughty god who makes mischief, and there is this other one, my friend, who is always beside me, supporting and guiding me, no matter what the other fella does. That is how it seems to have panned out in my experience. Like the big book, the ngostics seem to make a certain amount of sense to me when I compare it to my experience.

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StillTipsyMcStagger wrote:

I'm one of those who feel sorry for people who believe in god. The arbitrary nature and randomness of life must be really difficult for them to reconcile with their beliefs. Good things happen and it's "by the grace of god" horrible things happen and it's "all part of god's plan". I can't help but think that deep down inside they must feel somewhat tormented. God wouldn't save their niece from her leukemia and even the most religious zealot must ask themselves why? Did they not pray hard enough? Did she somehow deserve it? Was it to teach everyone around them some sort of lesson?

Famine.

War.

Rape.

Murder.

Child molestation.

The destruction of our planet.

Any supreme "almighty" being who allows those things, a million other heinous and depraved things, to happen is not a god I'm interested in groveling to.



-- Edited by StillTipsyMcStagger on Friday 19th of June 2015 02:29:25 PM


 

Ya know, ... the current condition of this world, everything you mentioned above, was predicted to happen in the 'big' Big Book ... 

And the directions for learning to cope with all the bad, and good, things in life are found written there ... 

Looking for answers??? ... it would be wise to spend some time reading the big Big Book ... for within those pages is the guide to a fulfilling life ... (if one wishes to feel like they matter in this world and that there is life after death)(because without faith here, how can one live in hope and love that makes living worthwhile?) ... 

 

Love ya and God Bless,

Pappy

 

(I know!!! ... brace myself ...)



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MIP Old Timer

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Accidentally came across this interview/debate in the popular media about the same subject being discussed here and a couple other threads. Interesting is how the tone and emotions ("anger" and "annoy[ance]) are so similar.

Actually, Jillette seems like he would do OK in a foxhole...



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Thanks Pickle, ... Interesting interview ...

Personally, I never cared for the beliefs of either of these two men ... there is only one place that the proof of God exists, and that is in a person's heart ... @ 62, I've seen and experienced many things ... many inexplicable phenomena, not the least of which is that of hard core alcoholics recovering from a fatal disease ... and several acquaintances that were only months or days from death according to groups of specialist Dr.s that gave them 'zero' chance at survival ... (3 times since getting sober) ... in every case, a group of family and friends got together to pray on the victim's behalf (1, an AA member about 68 y/o ... 2, my dad, at about 75 ... and 3, a 14 y/o boy of a friend with late stage bone cancer) ... and in every case, the doctors called in family to make funeral arrangements ...

I was one of several people in different prayer groups asking God to look favorably on these folks ... and if it were in accordance with His will, that they be spared so that they could go on to be witnesses to others that don't believe ... they went on to live years after that ... my dad has since died, but the other two are alive and doing quite well ... all doctors involved were at a loss to explain each person's survival ... in each case it was said noth'n short of a miracle could have saved them ...

So ... regardless of what anyone else thinks (doesn't bother me), I know God exists and that's all that counts ... cause I happen to be one of His miracles too ... and if I can persuade someone to believe in Him as the 'supreme being', then I will try ... ... ... (but I ain't go'n to drive the point into the ground and make an enemy) ...


God Bless,
Pappy



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peecee wrote:

Amigo wrote:

Those of you who for whatever reason find believing in God unnecessary....I feel sorry for you..you may be heading for rough waters..Don't think with your head ..think with your heart..That's where to find God

(LOL) There will always be those looking for an easier softer way..complicated people who find it impossible to keep things simple...


Most athiests find it insulting for you to "feel sorry" for them for their belief system. Would you want them feeling sorry for you that you do believe in God?  

...If they are clearly atheist...there is a way for them to work the program, stay sober, and utilize nontraditional higher powers. People feeling sorry for them and telling them so is degrading them and chasing them from AA. Just my opinion.


 Good point.

I think it's some of the spiritual hubris that AA has warned about since the early days.

Those spiritual hilltops are ever enticing...

 

 

 



-- Edited by Tanin on Tuesday 14th of July 2015 07:26:41 AM

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I agree.
I have talked with a few people who quit AA because they felt that they were being ridiculed because members were telling them that they wouldn't stay sober unless they believed in God. That is horse doo doo.

And it is a real shame. I have met some long-term sober recovering alcoholics who do not believe in God. They are happy and doing well. They didn't allow people who told them they HAVE to believe in God to stay off alcohol to chase them out of AA and give up on it. (They frequently do "damage control" and try to share that everyone's HP is up to them).

Although the Higher Power of my choice is God for me, I am not in AA to try and change anyone's religious beliefs. That is none of my business whatsoever!!! It doesn't make sense for me to get involved with that personal a matter anymore than I am going to try and change someone's preferences in their right to choose their marriage partner, political party or what they want to eat for dinner tonight. Again, not my business!

I am in AA to stay sober and try and help other alcoholics. I believe the chapter in AA that explains all this is called "We Agnostics" and not "We Antagonists".



-- Edited by hopefulone on Tuesday 14th of July 2015 08:34:43 AM

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I have been sober for only a little over a month now and have been going to AA meetings or my outpatient clinic groups pretty much every day and, as an atheist, I just don't see how I could get past step three, let alone the rest. I just don't see anything in AA that appeals to me or even makes sense as a useful tool to stay sober. I have no God or Higher Power to turn to. As a result I have become interested in AVRT, #s 1-16 on that page actually made sense to me and sound useful. There is also SOS/Smart Recovery but those are hard to find out here on eastern Long Island.



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The Tick wrote:

I have been sober for only a little over a month now and have been going to AA meetings or my outpatient clinic groups pretty much every day and, as an atheist, I just don't see how I could get past step three, let alone the rest.


 Hi Tick,

Well, yes, Step 3 looks pretty impossible to us when we have not yet found a way to do Step 2 in a way that makes sense to us. Start at the beginning. And it IS possible to come to believe that there are things other than our own flawed alcoholic self-will that we can turn to and rely on to guide us, even for people who do not have a belief that includes the idea of God as an all-knowing sentient supernatural being (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but not everyone has such a belief, and the point is, those people who don't, can and do still work all 12 steps and successfully recover from alcoholism and stay sober in AA). Have you tried reading the appendix in the back of the AA Big Book about the Spiritual Experience? Have you talked with other people in AA who are atheists and who have worked the 12 steps and been sober for a few years? Seek them out and ask them to show you how they did it. But again, the steps are in order for a reason. Get a sponsor and start at the beginning.



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Congrats on your month, Tick!
Great advice has been given already by davep12and12.

I wish you the best in your new sober life!

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Yeah, Congrats on the first month Tick ... ... ...

The main thing is for you to try and settle on a "higher power" of your choosing ... at this juncture, it's very important ... AND to know that this higher power you chose is NOT you ... many succeed in the program in just this fashion ...


Love ya and God Bless ya,
Pappy ...



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Congrats to the max on 1 month, Tick. I ain't getting all into this discussion, cause I don't really have any answers, anything worthwhile to add. All I want to say is that it gets better, each day, little by little, and before ya know it, half a year has gone by, and yer feeling way better than you did when you were drinking. And it keeps getting better after that. I can guarantee that. I can't guarantee whether there is a God or not, but I can guarantee that if you stay off the alcohol, you'll feel blessed. By who or what, I don't know, but you will feel grateful to wake up and not feel like shit. 



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I feel great(ful). Btw, don't worry about the future too much. It will be good. But for now, just take it 1 day at a time. Later, Gator.



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The Tick wrote:

...as an atheist, I just don't see how I could get past step three, let alone the rest. I just don't see anything in AA that appeals to me or even makes sense as a useful tool to stay sober. I have no God or Higher Power to turn to. As a result I have become interested in AVRT, #s 1-16 on that page actually made sense to me and sound useful. There is also SOS/Smart Recovery but those are hard to find out here on eastern Long Island.


 AA is not for everyone, Tick. Some people don't like it. AA doesn't work for all alcoholics. 

AVRT, SR and other programs have had some success where AA did not. AA does not have a monopoly on therapy for the recovering alcoholic. Definitely, consider trying a program other than AA if it will help keep you sober and AA is not making sense to you.

Sobriety is the ultimate and mandatory goal. Best wishes to you in your quest. Let us know what you decide and how you're doing.  It doesn't matter to us how you stay sober, just that you do stay sober. Most of us are AA around here (I am.) but some are not.



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