Forcing prayer?

davidc · Member

Forcing prayer?

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

EDIT: My reply probably wasn't helpful and Tanin's is much better so I'll retract most of mine and just leave this part:

Atheists can and do get sober and stay sober in AA.

-- Edited by davep12and12 on Tuesday 19th of May 2015 10:29:49 PM

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to the forum, DC.

It might be helpful for your wife to review the pamphlet on sponsorship. There is some pertinent info there.

Sponsorship Pamphlet

http://aa.activeboard.com/t50146639/

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Pretty much everything I took from the beginning was on faith...the because "they do and it works for them so I will do what works"...that wasn't and isn't the faith of any religious belief and the faith of duplication the do what they do. My first HP was the "doorknob" ...first the doorknob of the meeting rooms and then the humility that it is and was the instrument which opens the door to further learning, understanding and new behaviors required of me. All the years I drank I was an atheist...I had an understanding of God and never used it even when I reached that point where my life could be gone in the next second...I did not pray and did not ask because I did not believe. Getting into the program wasn't a miracle until I inventoried it long after I was alcohol free and that was fine with me cause I was alcohol free now and my mind, body, spirit and emotions were on a newer level like hers is and alcohol wasn't on the solution list for any perceived problem I thought I had. She has a sponsor that believes in prayer.... so believe in prayer just don't pray to yourself for yourself cause she/you know and now you know that you know that doesn't work and has not worked in the past ever.

Just a clue...At one meeting in the past one of our members was asked to close he meeting and the fellowship was expecting the Lords prayer which he could not do because he did not know it. "I cannot do it Jerry because I don't know it and don't believe as you all do" So I told him say the closing prayer as you know how to pray. Ever hear a Blackfoot Indian speak with his creator father? I tear up in remembrance and gratitude as John allowed me to listen to his face to face conversation with his first nation indigenous higher power.

There is no reason to drink especially alcoholically and for me no reason to tempt a fatal past.

David its okay for you to unfocus on her difficulties and demonstrate your own...you admit to also being atheist and not to having the trouble she is having. What is your experience with it? smile

davidc · Member

What's my experience with ?? Faith? Or Prayer?? Or drinking??

We are all part of this universe and on that level you can say there is a spirituality. And, the universe is the source of everything we know and what we are. But, I don't pray to the universe and I don't worship it. If anything I respect it and I respect many things. But, nothing is worthy of our worship.

Prayer (from the Latin precari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat") is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with an object of worship through deliberate communication.

She was asking for help and they only thing her sponsor could say is you're not serious about staying sober and staying in recovery merely because you don't pray.

I personally find that BS. And my wife was very upset and shaken up by that since as I said she has had over 70 days now sobriety and this was the first time she asked for any help from anyone in AA besides just attending a meeting.

I love my wife and I am trying to protect her and I hate it when she is hurting. That hurt her greatly. I think she can get sober and stay sober without prayer. And I think she would not be the first.

She has already started looking for another sponsor that is serious about helping.

I just had a hard time understanding how a sponsor can act this way when she was supposed to help her in this situation not condemn her because she does not pray.

I have never used drugs besides what has been prescribed to me, and even then only if I really needed it (I would not take pain pills when I broke my wrist a few summers back). I rarely drink and it's even less now that my wife is an alcoholic. She was hiding her problem and I was unaware of what was going on. I am glad she decided to go into recovery on her own.

I hope I have answered your question.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Sorry if I hit a nerve and hope I really didn't. My wife was an alcoholic/addict and later my own assessment revealed I needed to "never drink again or the next time I did I died". The point was that though I could hope for her often and intently she would have to, with the help of the program, blaze her own trail. All of us do that and she is doing it now her self...big YAY!!! Finding the courage to find another sponsor is part of my learning how to live the program. She chose a praying sponsor at first and we expect that sponsor to suggest what works for her and we express gratitude for their offering of help and finding it not within our willingness to try the same we say "thank you" and move on. Change is difficult because it is attempting new stuff we don't know about to arrive at an outcome we are not yet sure about. I'll bet her sponsor has in excess of 70 days sobriety how much of that is bs.

We Agnostics, Chapter 4 on page 44 of the 3rd Edition, my old edition handles the solution well...for me at least...do you have a Big Book? Read it for you see what the affect is for you. Still better from again my own experience check in the white pages of your local telephone book for the hotline number for the Al-Anon Family Groups and call for the times and places they get together to discuss how he disease has negatively affected their lives and what they are doing about it whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not.

In Al-Anon they have a 3C awareness slogan about themselves and the disease...We didn't Cause it, We cannot Control it and we will not Cure it. From my experience as the protector of my own alcoholic/addict wife. I tried teaching her how to drink...I found her a bible...I gave her deeply from my "I think" well which had no awareness of what alcohol and alcoholism really is. I was told early on that the chance could be that I could and would "send her back out" even when I didn't want it. One night she came home from an AA meeting confused and craving and walked up to me with the question "Do you thinking I am an alcoholic" and I responded from my "wishing well"..."NO" and she went back out on another 5 year run. Whatever we had left within our relationship left with her. When your wife gets her resolve, strength and sobriety it will be in spite of you not because of you. The first step is the same in both programs 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable.

So the question is really what is your experience with getting and keeping an alcoholic sober?

peecee · Senior Member

To me, prayer within the program takes form in the shape of "asking" a higher power. Your wife was/is humbling herself to a higher power enough to ask for help from the rooms and a sponsor. Hence, I do see that as praying in a way (in the way that is necessary to stay sober - not a traditionally religious way).

I was told to get on my knees in the morning and all that...I tried it, it never stuck. I did eventually just start throwing out prayers to be able to handle things her and there whenever and wherever and I didn't know where those prayers were going. It helped some.

You might check out alanon. Why is your wife not asking the questions here? She will face her own struggles in recovery and they are hers to deal with.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

davidc:

Atheism is a belief. I came to AA an agnostic. I also came a very sick man. I had to change (my beliefs) or I was going to die. (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually)

I was given the gift of recovery if I was willing to take certain Steps. Those Steps are laid out very simply in HOW IT WORKS
www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10_howitworks.pdf

PLEASE READ THE 3 PERTINENT IDEAS AT THE END OF "How It works".
It doesn't say "Don't drink, Don't use, Don't stick the bottle in your mouth"
It says "God could and would if He were sought" ..... not "FOUND" but "sought".

The Chapter to the Agnostic in The Big Book explains it better than I ever could.

HOW IT WORKS is read at every meeting in our area. The Program is laid out simply and specifically for me to follow. I just have to follow it ... to change myself not the Program.

If your wife is serious about AA recovery have her post here. We can help her if she "wants what we have and is ready to go to any length to get it".

If my sponsor didn't tell me to follow HOW IT WORKS he would be letting me down. You want to take God out of the Steps to suit you (and the wife) you would ruin it for us.

Good luck to you both.

Bob R

peecee · Senior Member

God is also "as we understood him." There is plenty of room to adopt a higher power that works which is personalized and whatever the person relates to. The idea is to believe in something and have faith in it. At the start, "God" could be the group or whatever derives hope from which is larger than themselves.

Coogi · Senior Member

Hello,

I'm sorry your wife had a hurtful experience. Each person is different and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Bit would be my guess her sponsor was suggesting what worked for her, hoping it would also work for your wife. If your wife and her sponsor are truly incompatible, I suppose she could get a different sponsor. I've heard of people changing sponsors.

In my personal experience, I was in AA for quite awhile before I found a connection with my Higher Power and am still sorting out what it means to me. I think about it frequently and I can say I've asked for God's help and my prayer was answered, even though I don't feel a strong connection. For a long time the group was my higher power, because all of us together were stronger than me by myself.

Congrats on your wife's 70 days, I know that does not come easy! Something I heard at a meeting once..."take what you need and leave the rest". Best wishes!

Jerricka

davidc · Member

2granddaughters : No one is asking anyone to remove anyone's god from anything. If such a thing exists in the first place.

My wife centers herself with meditation. To some this is very similar to prayer.

peecee: Yes, my wife has adopted society as her higher power but again she does not find any reason to pray to society.

So..the answer here is to fix my wife she has to lie to herself and lie to others that she prays and believes in God?? Being dishonest is what AA promotes?

I don't think that is a good thing. Do you?

No one should be forced to believe in something they do not. I was researching this on other boards and I read a few people like my wife that
quit AA or could never join because of how religious it is. That is a shame. At least my wife is still attending meetings and trying to do her best
without lying to herself or lying others about what she believes or does not believe.

AA is spiritual, not religious - now hold my hand while we pray. Great message.

She needs to find a sponsor that is going to help her and respect her. If she needs to ask "did you meditate today?" then great. At least
she is being respected.

She was about ready to quit AA but her therapist and myself have advised her it would be best to find another sponsor.

BTW: I have not had anything to drink since she went into recovery and if I never have another drink I don't care. I never cared for
alcohol and when I did drink it was typically like half a beer, anyway. Actually, I used to drink like 1-2 drinks per year before I met my wife
and since she was more of a drinker than I was I drank a bit more..maybe 1-2 drinks per month, again, typically like half a beer or something like that.

She started drinking much more heavily over the last year behind my back which is why she finally went into recovery.

Oh, I just found in our area a secular AA group. Awesome.

http://www.group-of-drunks.org/

I need to be sure she is aware of this. Thanx to everyone that responded.

-- Edited by davidc on Thursday 21st of May 2015 03:55:18 AM

-- Edited by davidc on Thursday 21st of May 2015 03:57:28 AM

peecee · Senior Member

I'm glad things are working out David. I suppose I'm being a bit of a "Clinton" when I say it all depends on how you define "prayer." AA has some old traditions. They do say prayers at meetings. It just is...That doesn't mean your wife cannot find her own way whether that is atheist or agnostic. She can find her own spiritual meaning in things. She doesn't have to lie to anyone. I would still check out alanon if I were you.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

davidc wrote:
2granddaughters wrote:
If my sponsor didn't tell me to follow HOW IT WORKS he would be letting me down. You want to take God out of the Steps to suit you (and the wife) you would ruin it for us.
2granddaughters : No one is asking anyone to remove anyone's god from anything. If such a thing exists in the first place.

That's my reaction, DC. Nothing in AA is "ruined" for me if an atheist who is trying to get and stay sober takes "God" out of the steps or out of the prayers. They can work an effective AA program without "God." Such doesn't hurt me.

Atheists can and do recover in AA. But sometimes reactions from non-atheist AA members make it a bit more difficult. And, they tend to circle the wagons when a challenge to "God" is perceived. This, unfortunately, drives people away from AA...

Your wife is on a right track, one of several possible, trying to find a more compatible sponsor to assist. There are a few secular 12 step programs out there, too. Some have rewording of the steps to make them acceptable to atheists and people of no faith.

-- Edited by Tanin on Thursday 21st of May 2015 10:35:02 AM

Toad · Senior Member

Can't see how any body was forcing any body to do anything.
I have had my feelings hurt many times.
Hurt feelings came with me learning I needed to learn some new stuff.
I was the one who asked for help.
Something about "Willing to go to any length ".
All is well.
Toad

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MIP davidc, ... A 'Higher Power' was a learned process for me as well ... ... ... one thing that hit me square between the eyes was what I found on page 55 of the AA Big Book ... :

Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.
Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.

Love ya and God Bless,
Pappy

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Oh, I was also told to 'act as if' there were a God ... after a time, I came to know Him ...

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Pythonpappy wrote:
Oh, I was also told to 'act as if' there were a God ... after a time, I came to know Him ...

I have a question about this suggestion:

Why would an atheist want to act as if there were a God?

Is it even possible? Isn't it inherently a contradiction?

If an atheist asked me to act as if there were no God, I think I would say no. I would have to say no.

Zoomtopz · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MiP David.

For many years in AA , I tried to piss god off , out of my life , but the mongrel would not go .

Yep , my Higher Power has a good sense of humour , he just waited for me to pick my dummy up

& get on with life . In Aussie we call a pacifier a dummy & the expression of "Spit the dummy out"

Is like when a toddler does not get what they want , they "spit the dummy out" in a tantrum .

David , I got told , I did not have to believe , but I may "come to believe , that a power greater

than myself" . David , I am a Sailor & a long distance Trucker , the type who hardly believes in

that sort of thing . But I did & still do . But , that Power is So different from my earlier beliefs.

And now when I go to 'throw a tanty' I think "no use trying to piss you of , you won't go , so

what do I do" & I usually get my answer pretty quickly.

As , was told to me David . Hang in there , till the miracle happens.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Hi David :) Thanks for reaching out and trying be a supportive human.

I began learning about being supportive in AA and then more in other 12 step groups... all of which primarily do focus on leading a better life for oneself and in turn those around us.

I was very interested in the feed back you got here... diverse... much like humanity. I think about 12 step groups like a trip to walmart - you're going to see a wide variety of people, with a wide variety of beliefs. I'm glad you're living in an area where you can congregate with people who have the same beliefs as you do (and your wife). That is something I really wished for here in my city... but later discovered that it really only took one other person in our group to 'be on my side' --- for me to see it was possible to learn a different way of life using 12 step principles. Later I discovered that if it hadn't been for that guy... I might have never gone back! But since I saw that one guy 'did it' without religion, I thought maybe I could too. I adopted the idea that was mentioned above... using the group for a Higher power. It was keeping me sober when I couldn't on my own. I went on to develope a prayer ritual that was very simple - I prayed to accept what is, the way it is... and I would also pray for people I was pissed off at.

I realized even then, that I wasn't 'praying to God' in the sense that the people who suggested this to me were probably intending... I was simply retraining my brain. Instead of being pissy and holding a grudge and doing the round and round in my head over people who I felt wronged me, or as Toad expressed, hurt my feelings --- I instead was teaching myself a healthier way of relating to the world. I wished people well, all good things... and hoped the best for them. This replaced old neuropathways that lead to fear, anxiety and sadness ---- which I would then relieve with alcohol -------- and created new pathways that allowed me to feel good, peaceful and kind - like my true self.

Today, several years later, those pathways are strong and my mind goes that direction naturally. In the beginning - I had to practice restructuring my brain a lot. Your wife is surely open to this idea if she meditates. We can call it praying or retraining the brain, or loving mindfulness or whatever... those are just words. Like it was said above --- we come here to 12 step land to change. We do need to be willing to go to any length, and over come all these little bumps in the road with an attitude of gratitude for the opportunity to reframe our thinking and make lasting changes in our lives.

The sponsor thing your wife experienced... I experienced many many times. I kept searching for the people that inspired me until I found them. Some of them were right here on this board - and I invite you wife to join in on the discussion! Sharing here helped me tremendously considering my town is very close minded and ridgid, and even includes some groups that are borderline if not fully cultish. Today I know that sort of ridgid structure is needed for some, and I am happy for people who find relief from addiction no matter what that looks like. That sort of thing can't work for me, but there is so much that can. Humans need connection and love - and it can be found. I adopted the slogan "don't drink no matter what" as I was taught here - and that has helped me get through the tough days like the one your wife experienced. I haven't thought about drinking in a long time, and I have no fear of every drinking, or causing any harm to my body/mind/soul ever again. This is also contrary to the popular AA belief which is that we should fear drinking again always. But I have no fear, and I'm not going to lie and say I do just to fit in. Every one's life and what works is different. Acceptance of this has been the touchstone to living a happy life.

Today I am capable of viewing the world in a healthier way, and I can take every inconvenient experience as an opportunity to do so. (Imperfectly of course - I am no saint! But I forgive myself and love myself unconditionally today through all of it.)

I believe when we come here so worn out and in need of unconditional love and tolerance, the worst thing that can happen is to have a run in with one of these 'tough love' sorts. But I also understand where tough love is derived. Addiction wears people out. Without balance... we stop seeing each person as an individual, and just start seeing a sea of sick people. I see that almost everywhere I go - around so called 'normies' too. We live in a suffering society. That said - we only understand the joy of living due to this. Yin Yang. I know now to focus on lifes treasures... the beauty and the vitality in my life has returned. I fill my own tank up with my passions and loved ones first... and then I am ready to look into the eyes of an individual who is still suffering with unconditional love, tolerance and acceptance - truly and fully.... with no strings attached... no outcomes in mind... no rules... no shame.... ....... and this brings me the serenity and peace that is available to anyone.

Best wishes on your journey --- sending hugs and smiles for your wife and you. xoox

-- Edited by justadrunk on Thursday 21st of May 2015 03:41:54 PM

davidc · Member

Tanin wrote:
Pythonpappy wrote:
Oh, I was also told to 'act as if' there were a God ... after a time, I came to know Him ...
I have a question about this suggestion:
Why would an atheist want to act as if there were a God?
Is it even possible? Isn't it inherently a contradiction?
If an atheist asked me to act as if there were no God, I think I would say no. I would have to say no.

Thank you, Tanin. Exactly. You have to be true to yourself.

We're attending the Sunday secular meeting. The only bad thing about it is the time. I work Wed night through Sunday morning and we prefer to spend Sun-Tue together so she attends meetings the nights I work. This just takes that much more time away from us. I will be going with her this Sunday and I have no problem attending every Sunday but she has stated she has issues with me attending every meeting. She might not say something she wants to say because I am there. Not that it's necessarily bad about me, but because she does not want me to think less of her which is understandable. Not that I would, but I can't convince her of that.

I really hope she can find a sponsor that works for her. She is 76 days sober now and she is very proud of herself as am I.

When my wife cries if tears me up inside and after she spoke to her sponsor that day she was crying. And I was after her to find a sponsor because she hadn't found one yet and I know they are suppose to help. This sponsor did not help. My wife was crying not because she did anything wrong.

I'll see if she wants to post here.

Thanx everyone again.

davidc · Member

Pythonpappy wrote:
Welcome to MIP davidc, ... A 'Higher Power' was a learned process for me as well ... ... ... one thing that hit me square between the eyes was what I found on page 55 of the AA Big Book ... :

Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.
Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.

Love ya and God Bless,
Pappy

This almost sounds like proselytizing. Like, the ULTIMATE truth is there is a God whether you see it or not and you need to believe in one whether you want to or not. Not that anyone can prove there is a God or anything.

Like my wife said..I just refuse to drink the Kool-Aid. And to that her therapist responded..."Yeah, AA is very Kool-Aidie"..

-- Edited by davidc on Friday 22nd of May 2015 01:40:25 AM

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Yes - I came in believing for sure there was no God... and thinking that people who believed in God must be some kind of brain washed idiots. What changed was... for me... to say I know either way would make me the idiot. I don't know. No one knows. People can live by certain principles, and make a choice that allows them to feel peaceful... and beyond that, I have nothing to say about it any more. I attend church sometimes and either really enjoy what I'm hearing or get a great laugh. I read stuff from buddism once and a while, though I am not buddihst. Someone said that AA is the best entertainment you can find for a dollar. I can look back on all the crazy things that happen in AA or churches or anywhere today and laugh about it... I mean - where ever you stick a group of humans... there is going to be drama and conflict and all sorts of great and not so great happenings. I learned so much about not taking everything personally or becomming obssessed with every slight from somebody. What people do is about them, not me. What they say is what they themselves need to hear I believe. Depending on where they are, and what they are trying to convince themselves of. I am happy to keep hearing myself say what I am saying - and I am the one who always has to listent to me! If what comes out sucks - then I have to feel like I suck (no matter if I'm conscious of that or not).

Today I still believe AA saved my life, and was exactly the stepping stone I needed to be who I am today... and check in on it once and a while - though I no longer consider myself a member. I might change my mind some day? Maybe tomorrow? I don't know. (There's my HP, allowing me peace). No one knows. Everything that ever was and is I am a part of, so maybe I can't ever say I am or am not a part of everything all the time ;)

Life is beautiful. It offers a wide variety of experiences and I think that is wonderful.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

davidc wrote:
Tanin wrote:
Pythonpappy wrote:
Oh, I was also told to 'act as if' there were a God ... after a time, I came to know Him ...
I have a question about this suggestion:
Why would an atheist want to act as if there were a God?
Is it even possible? Isn't it inherently a contradiction?
If an atheist asked me to act as if there were no God, I think I would say no. I would have to say no.

Thank you, Tanin. Exactly. You have to be true to yourself.
We're attending the Sunday secular meeting. The only bad thing about it is the time. I work Wed night through Sunday morning and we prefer to spend Sun-Tue together so she attends meetings the nights I work. This just takes that much more time away from us. I will be going with her this Sunday and I have no problem attending every Sunday but she has stated she has issues with me attending every meeting. She might not say something she wants to say because I am there. Not that it's necessarily bad about me, but because she does not want me to think less of her which is understandable. Not that I would, but I can't convince her of that.
I really hope she can find a sponsor that works for her. She is 76 days sober now and she is very proud of herself as am I.
When my wife cries if tears me up inside and after she spoke to her sponsor that day she was crying. And I was after her to find a sponsor because she hadn't found one yet and I know they are suppose to help. This sponsor did not help. My wife was crying not because she did anything wrong.
I'll see if she wants to post here.
Thanx everyone again.

Okay, ... good question ...

This is how it went for me ... my sponsor told me (early on), after a private meeting, to go home and pray to God, thanking Him for the 'day' ... I told him no, I couldn't do that cause first off, i don't know there is a God, and I'm not going to be a hypocrite ... He told me ... do it anyway ... so I did what he told me to do ... I went home and got on my knees and prayed, God, thank you for a lousy damn day, Amen ...

My sponsor insisted I pray regularly so I did what he said ... one day, driving to a meeting, a God I never knew moved into the car with me (I nearly wrecked my car when it happened)... I still remember the exact place it happened ... and now that's been years ago ... yes, by praying as if God was listening, I had a profound experience ... NO one will ever convince me now that God is not there ... He is, I believe in His miracles, cause I are one ...

There are sober atheists ... it is possible ... I was agnostic, and I find it more convincing, at every meeting, to see God's handiwork of sober people in attendance ...

Feel free to believe what you wish, ... just don't drink 'today' ... tomorrow will take care of itself ...

Love ya and God Bless,

Pappy

Toad · Senior Member

Like my wife said..I just refuse to drink the Kool-Aid. And to that her therapist responded..."Yeah, AA is very Kool-Aidie"..
davidc

davidc · Member

I also find it curious...if you are sober then you can thank God. If you drink. it's your fault. Guess God just can't fail in this circumstance.

Pythonpappy: So I am just glad your sponsor did not tell you to jump off any bridges.

Been an atheist since I was 13 years old (actually my whole life but was not introduced to the word until I was 13) . Never touched pot or any other illegal drug. Didn't have my first drink of anything till I was 23. Never liked the stuff. Was drunk once when I was best man for my best friend. I really did not drink a lot I thought but when you don't drink very much it does not take very much. Learned a valuable lesson. Other than that one night as best man, been sober 50 years.

Peace to you all.

-- Edited by davidc on Friday 22nd of May 2015 08:49:08 PM

-- Edited by davidc on Friday 22nd of May 2015 08:50:42 PM

BLUESMAN · Senior Member

Hellow David

First of all AA is not a Religion,,i dont no where you got that if you no anything about AA.

If you ever been to a meeting they read what AA is.

Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are selfsupporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not ALLIED WITH ANY SECT DENOMINATION POLITICS ORGANIZATION or INSTITUTION; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

I have been sober many years church ,bible ,had nothing to do with it,,we have Traditions that help us from are selves

''AA is NOT A CULT ''

Tradition one ; "Does this mean," some will anxiously ask, "that in A.A the individual doesn't count for much? ls he to

be dominated by his group and swallowed up in it?

We may certainly answer this question with a loud "No!" We believe there isn't a fellowship on earth

which lavishes more devoted care upon its individual members; surely there is none which more

jealously guards the individual's right to think, talk, and act as he wishes. No A.A. can compel another

to do anything; nobody can be punished or expelled. Our Twelve Steps to recovery are suggestions;

the Twelve Traditions which guarantee A.A.'s unity contain not a single "Don't." They repeatedly say

"We ought..." but never "You must!"

Most groups or fellowships have bussiness meetings these can be address there ..

Are Third Tradition say you only have to a desire not to Drink it dos not say you HAVE TO BELIEVE IN GOD..

I dont have a problem what people believe in today ,it beats dying from Alcoholism ,

So the next time your wife see's the Therapist ask her this Question HOW MANY DRUNKS HAS SHE SAVED FROME THE GATES OF INSANITY AND DEATH''

good luck to you

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

justadrunk wrote:
Today I still believe AA saved my life, and was exactly the stepping stone I needed to be who I am today... and check in on it once and a while - though I no longer consider myself a member. I might change my mind some day? Maybe tomorrow? I don't know. (There's my HP, allowing me peace). No one knows. Everything that ever was and is I am a part of, so maybe I can't ever say I am or am not a part of everything all the time ;)

It was good to have you in AA for a good while. You recently celebrated a 3 year anniversary, IIRC?

What caused you to end your membership in AA and move on to something else?

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

I rarely get one day free from the symptoms of growing up in dysfunction... yet I do celebrate being alive daily. They said take what you like and leave the rest. So I do.

-- Edited by justadrunk on Saturday 23rd of May 2015 08:54:30 AM

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

justadrunk wrote:
Tanin wrote:
justadrunk wrote:
Today I still believe AA saved my life, and was exactly the stepping stone I needed to be who I am today... and check in on it once and a while - though I no longer consider myself a member. I might change my mind some day?...
It was good to have you in AA for a good while. You recently celebrated a 3 year anniversary, IIRC?
What caused you to end your membership in AA and move on to something else?
I rarely get one day free from the symptoms of growing up in dysfunction... yet I do celebrate being alive daily.

Being alive is wonderful. May you have found the very best program for yourself beyond the stepping stone of Alcoholics Anonymous to allow you to celebrate life to the max.

Remember that, if you are an alcoholic, you can always come back to AA. Anytime. If you are not an alcoholic, well, that would be a good thing...

Best wishes to you, JAD.

davidc · Member

BLUESMAN - Thanx for your input. I never really thought AA was a cult or a religion. I was just trying to deal with why my wife was told by her sponsor that unless she
prays she is not serious about her sobriety or recovery. I don't think anyone should be telling another they have to pray.

I am definitely aware AA has helped many people stay sober and even saved their lives.

While I am here I'll tell you about my experience with the AL-ANON meeting I went to. It opened with the SERENITY PRAYER which was spoken by just the person
leading the meeting. I did not have any problem with that. But, at the end, they wanted everyone to hold hands and repeat the Lord's prayer.
Of course, I stayed silent but it's not much of fellowship if you are not going to join in on what's going on. In the past I just would have mumbled and pretended
but I have learned that this is why so many people today will say things like "Well, 99% of the planet is religious"..when #1 that is nowhere near the truth
and #2 when you pretend to pray, everyone thinks you're religious and that gives them "warm fuzzies" that indeed everyone is religious.
Suffice it to say I did not return to another meeting.

I also read that on most other continents, the Lord's prayer is not typically said like it is here in the USA at the end of the meetings.

Look, I'm not trying to put down anyone that is religious. I served in the military and I would defend and fight for anyone's right to be as religious as they choose
as long as it's not forced upon me (though I did have to swear an oath to someone else's God to join the military...but then again..I mumbled through that part).

Someone should not be told they have to pray to be serious about being sober. And it seems from the input here is that is something her sponsor should not have
done.

-- Edited by davidc on Sunday 24th of May 2015 02:30:21 AM

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

I wouldn't say that for sure... it's all learning.

hopefulone · Senior Member

When I had just a little over three months of sobriety, I had someone tell me that I was not taking my sobriety seriously because I did not have a sponsor and did not have a home group. In fact, I was told I was a threat to this person's sobriety until I did these things. I almost used those remarks as a reason to drink again that day. Within a couple of months I did get a sponsor as well as a home group. I will have two years of sobriety at the end of this month.

It is good to know in AA that no one can force anyone to do anything. The choices each one of us make is up to us. And whether it is a sponsor, another member or even a non-alcoholic, it is good to know that we no longer have to be told what to do and feel guilty when we choose our own way. I do believe in God. My faith was all but gone when I first got sober. I respect and accept the right that others have to make their own decisions and I do not have the need to tell someone else what they need to do in order to stay sober. All I can do is share what is working for me.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Hello Davidc and welcome to the board.

Praying or a belief in "God" is not a requirement of AA. Your wife's sponsor was Wrong for saying what she said. Believing in a "higher power greater than yourself...of your own understanding" is a suggestion, while working certain steps, which is the the main (some would say only) part of the program of AA recovery. I have worked with a couple of atheists / agnostics in the past. What I explained to them (my concept of how a "Higher Power" works) was this. That alcoholics suffer from a number of character defects, one is "self reliance". This would be a self centered belief that we don't need and should not ask for help. And that we can control most circumstances that are having some sort of affect on us. Add to that, that because of our history of alcoholism, which is classified as a DSM class 4 mental disorder, by the AMA, we tend to be immature, emotional, and make poor decisions on a regular basis. Add to that a a bit of denial , dishonesty, inability to cope with stress factors large or small, and you have a quite a mess. And somehow, alcohol seems to smooth all this out. With all that said, the founders of this program figured out (and borrowed heavily) that a candidate for recovery from alcoholism needed to place their self reliance elsewhere. In 1935, this nation Was probably 90% + Christian, hence the "God" (and later "Higher Power") was used as a source to place reliance upon. It worked well then, and it still works well now, except for atheists / agnostics.

With all that said, think of a "Higher Power" as a place other than yourself, that you can place trust or "faith" in for dealing with circumstances beyond your control. It's totally up to you. It can be anything outside of yourself, the universe, the sea, the mountains, science, mankind..... Think of it as a psychological model for the express purpose of working the steps (such as getting in touch with your "inner child" in the ACOA program), to get through the program, and stay sober long term. It doesn't cost anything, you don't have to give up anything. We came here looking for a solution to a deadly problem. Being rigidly closed minded can be deadly to an alcoholic. We all know that, we've all been there. I had many beliefs, and disbeliefs when I was drinking. I've let go of most of them (expression of gratitude), They kept me from having a life, enjoying a family, being successful, being healthy, traveling, enjoying hobbies. Alcohol took away almost everything that I loved, and prevented me from hundreds of activities that I enjoyed today. Take a look at the big picture, and try not to get too hung up on being right.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10_howitworks.pdf

Read HOW IT WORKS. That is AA ! PLEASE READ THE 3 PERTINENT IDEAS !!!! The very basis of HOW IT WORKS !!

You take God (Higher Power) out and you don't have many steps left .. and you are left with a shell of the original program

You want to water it down and change it then go ahead but don't call your version AA.

And don't be promoting watered down quasi recovery to folks on an AA message board.

When GSO changes the wording of HOW IT WORKS in The Big Book then you will have a leg to stand on.

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

2granddaughters wrote:

And don't be promoting watered down quasi recovery to folks on an AA message board.

I don't see that this is what is being done in this discussion. The AA literature clearly says that these steps involve looking for some kind of power that is greater than our own knee-jerk alcoholic self-will, whatever that is, and that this power ends up being 'as we understand' that power to be, and individual to each of us based on our own experiences. It also clearly explains that this power can be many things, including a 'previously untapped inner resource'. There is no requirement that everyone else's experience with this stuff match a specific idea that you or someone else may happen to have of God as an omnipotent sentient supernatural being. It's not watering it down, it's pointing out that 'the hoop we have to jump through is bigger than we thought'. What works for you in this respect is what works for you. What works for a Buddhist or an agnostic or an atheist or a Hindu or a Druid is what works for them.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

Weak AA coffee ....

When you start changing HOW IT WORKS to suit the folks that don't want to change you make AA ineffective.

Do whatever you want. This is only an internet website.

Go and sit across from the oldtimers at a meeting and tell them that God doesn't really count after all .. that you don't need a Higher Power.

Good luck.

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

It's taken more than 'good luck' for me to stay sober these past 26 years, but thank you for that anyway. We just have different experiences with our own understanding of a higher power that has worked for us. No need to get defensive. I am glad that we have both found what works for us, and I hope that anyone else who needs to find some power to rely upon other than their own alcoholic self-will in order to get sober and stay sober finds whatever is right for them.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

Read HOW IT WORKS and tell me where i am "defensive" . It took me to follow HOW IT WORKS to get my own 26 yrs (July 18, 1989).

The program is laid out so simply and specificaily in HOW IT WORKS and we still don't want to follow the directions.
We want to make AA fit us instead of conforming to AA (half measures availed us nothing)

Good post about the Buddhists and Hindus.
I don't go and tell them they need God to get their religion & spirituality and I won't stand for them telling AA that it doesn't need God for it's program of recovery.

I'm far from defensive. I'm just following the direction that was given to me by Bill & Bob and my first sponsor.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

2granddaughters wrote:
And don't be promoting watered down quasi recovery to folks on an AA message board.

2granddaughters wrote:
Do whatever you want. This is only an internet website.

???

2granddaughters wrote:
Weak AA coffee ....

Go and sit across from the oldtimers at a meeting and tell them that God doesn't really count after all .. that you don't need a Higher Power.

Good luck.

Weak reading...

What some folks are saying is that YOU can use God in AA but that an atheist does not need to believe in God to enjoy the gift of sobriety in AA.

See the example in:

http://aa.activeboard.com/t60260011/the-atheist-way-through-aa/

Me, I use God in AA. That has worked for me. But I won't support excluding atheists from AA because they decline to renounce their atheism.

Remember 2G, atheists are not asking you to give up your religion...they do not have that right.

Atheists should be welcome in AA. Not discouraged or rejected.

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

2granddaughters wrote:
The comments here are not saying "you don't need a higher power", and that includes my comments, so I don't know why you are aiming your remarks at me. The point is that just because someone's experience with finding a higher power that works for them has been different from the experiences of some others, it doesn't mean those others are 'taking God out of the steps' or that they are telling people 'you don't need a higher power'. it just means that we have different experiences. Lots of people in AA all over the world find a connection with some previously unknown power or force or inner resource or whatever that is greater, saner, healthier, than their flawed alcoholic self-will, upon which they can rely and turn to for guidance in their actions and reactions, and yet it may be completely different from your idea or my idea about what God is and how we experience all of this in our own lives.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

I was originally replying to Dean. He said it and you seem to be backing him up.

Anyway, I've been down this road before here. It's sad that oldtimers here say that: "Praying or a belief in "God" is not a requirement of AA."
That statement flies in the face of HOW IT WORKS. i don't know how someone could post that on an AA forum .....

2granddaughters · Senior Member

"Atheists should be welcome in AA. Not discouraged or rejected."

They are welcome if they wish to commit to HOW IT WORKS .

If they want to change HOW IT WORKS to suit themselves then they are not welcome.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

Do you think that aa.activeboard.com/t60260011/the-atheist-way-through-aa/ changes HOW IT WORKS in any way ?? Come on ??!! Give me a break.

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

I can understand why someone might think (correctly or otherwise) that if someone else works their steps in a way that is very different from the way they do it that the other person's way might not be successful, but really? They are not 'welcome' in AA? Since when?

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Maria Hornbacher wrote:
Im going to make a lot of old-style AAs cranky with this, but its perfectly possible to sober up sans belief in God.
aa.activeboard.com/t60260011/the-atheist-way-through-aa/

Good prediction...

2granddaughters · Senior Member

Maria has no effect on commited AA members. She doesn't make me cranky as her thoughts don't apply to AA as she thinks they do.

She can take her brand of recovery and I wish her the best. Just don't call it AA or try to change AA to conform to her.

Have her start her own group(s) and see how it goes.

The Big Book says that many found sobriety through religion and many through psychiatry. No problem .. go for it.

If you walk into AA and read/hear HOW IT WORKS then you should be able to make a decision on whether you want it or not.
Want it? Welcome. Lets get down to business.
Don't want/like it? Good luck to you where ever you choose to go...

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

2granddaughters wrote:
Maria has no effect on commited AA members. She doesn't make me cranky as her thoughts don't apply to AA as she thinks they do.

She can take her brand of recovery and I wish her the best. Just don't call it AA or try to change AA to conform to her.

Have her start her own group(s) and see how it goes.

The Big Book says that many found sobriety through religion and many through psychiatry. No problem .. go for it.

If you walk into AA and read/hear HOW IT WORKS then you should be able to make a decision on whether you want it or not.
Want it? Welcome. Lets get down to business.
Don't want/like it? Good luck to you where ever you choose to go...

Tradition 3 of Alcoholics Anonymous:

The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desireto stop drinking.

Marya Hornbacher and other atheists are welcome to get sober in A.A.

They cannot be kept out of A.A. by misguided exclusionists.

2granddaughters · Senior Member

davep12and12 wrote:
I can understand why someone might think (correctly or otherwise) that if someone else works their steps in a way that is very different from the way they do it that the other person's way might not be successful, but really? They are not 'welcome' in AA? Since when?

Different way ??!! This whole thread is about whether God is wanted/needed/promoted in AA ....

HOW IT WORKS says YES! Absolutley ! God is the bottom line (3 pertinent ideas) not a damn "suggestion" ??!!

Many above say NO/not needed/not required......

I don't give a shit about you oldtimers here (whether you agree with me or not) .I care about HOW IT WORKS. The meat & potatoes of AA !

I CAREABOUT THE NEWCOMER READING THIS TRIPE ABOUT NOT NEEDING GOD.

ON A F&%$ING ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS MESSAGE BOARD AT THAT !! Unforgivable.....

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

2granddaughters wrote:
davep12and12 wrote:
I can understand why someone might think (correctly or otherwise) that if someone else works their steps in a way that is very different from the way they do it that the other person's way might not be successful, but really? They are not 'welcome' in AA? Since when?

Different way ??!! This whole thread is about whether God is wanted/needed/promoted in AA ....
HOW IT WORKS says YES! Absolutley ! God is the bottom line (3 pertinent ideas) not a damn "suggestion" ??!!
Many above say NO/not needed/not required......

I don't give a shit about you oldtimers here (whether you agree with me or not) .I care about HOW IT WORKS. The meat & potatoes of AA !
I CAREABOUT THE NEWCOMER READING THIS TRIPE ABOUT NOT NEEDING GOD.
ON A F&%$ING ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS MESSAGE BOARD AT THAT !! Unforgivable.....

2G, calm down. Patience and tolerence....please.

Maybe you're right about your views. We'll all have think about it. Maybe pray about it too.

But I keep wondering... Why would God (or Bill Wilson or Bob Smith) deliberately exclude alcoholics from AA simply because they are atheists?

Makes no sense.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Nice job of only reading the first sentence of my post 2GD's. I think if you read the bottom half of my first paragraph, it aptly describes your reaction lol.
Where in Chapter 5 does it say that belief in God is a requirement for membership in AA?

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

2granddaughters wrote:

And don't be promoting watered down quasi recovery to folks on an AA message board.

davep12and12 wrote:
I don't see that this is what is being done in this discussion. The AA literature clearly says that these steps involve looking for some kind of power that is greater than our own knee-jerk alcoholic self-will, whatever that is, and that this power ends up being 'as we understand' that power to be, and individual to each of us based on our own experiences. It also clearly explains that this power can be many things, including a 'previously untapped inner resource'. There is no requirement that everyone else's experience with this stuff match a specific idea that you or someone else may happen to have of God as an omnipotent sentient supernatural being. It's not watering it down, it's pointing out that 'the hoop we have to jump through is bigger than we thought'. What works for you in this respect is what works for you. What works for a Buddhist or an agnostic or an atheist or a Hindu or a Druid is what works for them.

StPeteDean Wrote:

Notice that 2 GD's doesn't address your well written response here, but just keep hammering away at the mention of "God" in the steps and how it works. *rolling eyes*. I'm hoping that in his 3rd decade he will find emotional sobriety. All 3 of us got sober the same year, funny "how that works" lol.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Wednesday 27th of May 2015 02:04:52 AM

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

I notice 2granddaughters has left the forum.

Best to ya, Bob.

Happy 26 years...

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

I saw that too. Say hello to Elvis for me

peecee · Senior Member

He is on other forums saying much the same thing. It's his MO. There are a bunch of folks out there that go on rants about how AA is in decline because people are watering it down and taking GOD - The fundamental solution out of AA. I get that this approach works for them, but they don't acknowledge and show massive disdain for the rest of us who work the same basic program but are not so emphatic in that area.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

I don't mind Bob having and spouting his beliefs and views about AA. I don't even mind much his misinterpretations of the BB and the 12&12, or his misreading of other member's argument and posts. He is entitled to his views and his rhetorical tactics.

But his notion that certain people here must shut up is pure censorship. And AA does not promote censorship of any member views. In fact, AA "jealously guards the individual's right to think, talk, and act as he wishes."

Bob has his views and he and his running partners, like old our friend Sapling/Stepchild, have shown no hesitation in propagating them in THOUSANDS of posts they have made here and on other recovery/AA forums.

There is no priesthood in AA. Everyone of us is in the same class. We all get to say and think what we wish about AA. That is a tradition going back all the way to Jimmy Burwell in the 1930's. I'm suspecting that Bob would find the Jimmy B. story instructive.

I invite 2grandaughters back to this discussion forum (and Stepchild too). They can state their beliefs, opinions and concerns. They can make their arguments. AA members have been discussing the concepts, the literature, and the right course for the program and fellowship since the beginning days, 80 years ago. This is a good thing.

But they can't censor others who hold disparate opinions. There is no censorship in AA.

Lowflyin Lolana · Newbie

I am newly into this sobriety thing, and my last big fail was Mother's Day, May 10 (worst day of the year for me). Since then I've been going to meetings and working on the first step. Damned if I don't want to drink every day and damned if every day it isn't still a fight.

So I made the mistake of telling my Dad that I was going to meetings. He knew I was trying to quit, and he has been in AA for some 30 years. And yet all he could do, when I expressed grief over the family situation (my siblings do not speak to me since I revealed the abuse another family member heaped on me as a child)----was tell me I needed to take my own inventory (he has always maintained that the family problems are my own fault), quiz me on the steps, and berate and yell at me.

There are people who say it's "tough love" when it's actually an excuse to abuse another person. He has never gotten it, always supported the abuser, never believed me, and still does not. I am still the bad guy. I decided he is a huge threat to my sobriety and I must not talk to him anymore.

So I can relate to the business of people being in AA, people who should know better, who think that judging others is appropriate. No one can get inside another person's head, and no one should shove their "god" down another person's throat like that. That is not spirituality, that is not love, that is not support.

I lived in Texas for 12 years and for the first part of my life I was actually very religious and a good Catholic. When I went to a Baptist university, I was told over and over that my Catholic upbringing meant I was going to hell (because there are differences in the beliefs) ....and I left that university very, very agnostic. So many people were cruel and judgmental in the name of God.

So I understand. Time for your wife to get a new sponsor. There's no such thing as a world that doesn't hurt....but in this sensitive phase of getting sober, your wife needs to be surrounded by people who understand. Depending on where you live it can be hard to find that. I am in California and the people I meet in meetings are not judgmental at all, they are kind, accepting, and hold a variety of beliefs. Keep trying.

-- Edited by Lowflyin Lolana on Thursday 28th of May 2015 10:03:23 PM

davidc · Member

Thanx everyone for your replies.

As of right now I have not been able to get my wife to go back to an AA meeting.

Her mindset, which is how it's been since I have known her, is once you "cross" her she will
write you off and won't have another thing to do with you.

I think she has done that with AA. There is not a lot I can do to make her go back though I think
she still needs to go.

I am going to carefully broach this again this weekend...and see how it goes.

I was very proud of my wife for deciding "Society" was her higher power. Morals have their roots in society
since man leaned early on that people when working together in a group. the group thrives more than if the
individuals remained individual and fought amongst themselves for resources and etc. Cooperation, respect,
kindness all helped the group survive as a whole.

So, my main question is why the Steps continue to use the word God everywhere. I mean, they say
"Higher Power" and God as you know him. They could just as easily said Higher Power in place
of God in all of those steps and let each individual decide what their higher power is. If that is God, then great.

No, I'm not coming down on AA. I think I am asking a legitimate question.

davep12and12 · MIP Old Timer

Hi Davidc,

I sincerely hope that your wife finds everything that she needs to help her stay sober, whether that is a better AA experience with different AA members, or something else besides AA that works for her. Whatever works. And of course take care of yourself, too, with whatever works best for that. The point is to keep at it and don't give up.

Regarding your question about why the wording is as it is, that's largely because that's the way the first few members wrote the book many years ago to document how they had gotten sober. There are some personal stories in the back of the book which get changed with every new edition, but the first 164 pages remain the same, largely because it does work well the way it is, and there is great reluctance to alter it because of that. There are newer books that have been published by AA that expand on the ideas in the AA 'Big Book' and offer some variety of viewpoints.

-- Edited by davep12and12 on Friday 29th of May 2015 12:00:33 AM

chris · Senior Member

After wading through and reading this thread, I see it's the same old same old. DavidC, your wife needs to decide on her own that she needs to go to meetings. It's nice that you're trying to help her, but it's an inside job. 8 1/2 years ago my drinking was completely out of control and I was given the choice by my husband of seeking help or moving out of my house. At the time I had an 11 and 12 year old. I thought about it for a day (which horrifies me now when I realize that I loved vodka more then my own children). I came to the conclusion that I would have to live in my car until that got repossessed, and started going to AA daily the next day. This group became my home group, and every once in a while it gets brought up that I was the most angry person ever to walk through those doors. I was furious that my best friend had been taken away. But guess what, I stuck around, listened and took suggestions and said the prayers, even though I didn't believe in "god", I substituted "nature" or the Group Of Drunks (GOD) around me for god. I still am ambivalent on the "god" thing, as I was brought up Catholic and really don't believe in that punishing god. Eventually I became grateful for getting a new and better life then I had ever imagined when I was drinking.

The Big Book was written a long time ago. Sometimes you just need to let things go, god is what you make it, as long as it's not yourself.

sofreelygiven · Newbie

When I came into the rooms, I was a really sick atheist. Immediately, I wanted what those people had: whether they talked about God, or not. If they had told me to wear a costume and dance the funky chicken, I would have done so; I was that desperate. I was approached by a woman who offered to be my "temporary sponsor"; she sponsored me for over a year, taking me on my first journey through the steps. She also became a dear friend. Not long after I began taking the steps with her, I became acutely aware of my spiritual need (I believe now, that I had always been so, and that was why I felt such intense suffering; I had no solution to my sicknesses.) Upon meeting with her one evening, I confessed to her something that had been consuming me: that I didn't think I could get sober, if I didn't believe in God. She just smiled, the way she always did (she was absolutely the best sponsor that could have come into my life.) She suggested that I make a list, of all the qualities I would look for in a best friend, and to let that "friend" be my higher power, until I could call "it" God. The idea was feasible, and I was, as I said, desperate, so away I went...

This, basically, amounted to an act of surrender. I often recall the vital reminder, from "Step One" of the 12 Steps and Traditions book: "The principle that we shall find no enduring strength until we first admit complete defeat is the main taproot from which our whole Society has sprung and flowered." I was defeated, all right. In less than two weeks, I was willing to call that "friend" God, because I became conscious of my belief. It had been there all along, amidst a life of denial.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~Herbert Spencer (Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience")

Today, I begin each day with a brand new surrender. It's vital to my very sanity, to my sobriety and to my life. Admitting defeat is not a bad thing; I get to go to the winning side.

~r

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

DavidC, The reason the word "God" is still in the books and steps is that it would be very hard to change the text that is roughly 80 years old. The best thing to do,
is lighten up a little, use "higher power" and ignore the rest. This program works well. I was a tough case, drinking daily from 15 years old till 29. Been sober 25 years now
it's a wonderful thing. Nobody is trying to make me pray, say certain words or read anything. Please explain to your wife that the individual (her former sponsor) does not
represent AA as a whole. She's human and was not sponsoring in a precribed maner.

hopefulone · Senior Member

Davidc...
you said> "Her mindset, which is how it's been since I have known her, is once you "cross" her she will
write you off and won't have another thing to do with you."

That is sad. It is the same way I used to be and when I am not careful, I can be that way today and let what someone else says or does influence my life and cause me to make decisions which are not right for me. I have quit AA in the past when someone said something I didn't agree with or thought was cruel. I have quit (not just AA but other things) because there were things which were not done the way I thought they should be done. Someone mentioned above "Take what you want and leave the rest". I have had to do just that to stay sober. I work the program as best I can and continue to listen to suggestions which others in the program have given me. I leave the bs that some people are so very willing to let fly out of their mouths and tell me what I am doing wrong with MY sobriety go in one ear and out the other. There are many people who change sponsors when one doesn't work for them. That's just part of it. It is a shame that your wife let what one person said have this big an affect on her. It sounds like she didn't just "write off" one person, she wrote off the program. If she genuinely is an alcoholic and wants to stop drinking for good, hopefully she will come back and no amount of begging and pleading from anyone else can make that decision for her. I know because I certainly had some people trying to get me in the program before I was ready. When I had "had enough" and was thoroughly beaten down, I came back.

You mentioned about the meetings taking up the time you spend with her. I know I spend far less time at meetings (and I attend quite a few even with some sobriety time under my belt) than the time I spent drinking. This time at meetings is always an investment in my happiness and I am not resentful of any time in a meeting as I am always learning from them and enjoy the fellowship. It is helping keep me sober. Also, about her crying and you said it tears you up. I know in early sobriety I cried all the time. I was embarrassed at first. I thought that such and such "made" me cry. It took me awhile to realize that I am always in control of my own emotions and nothing anyone says or does can cause me to feel happy, sad, mad, etc. unless I let them. I didn't learn that on my own....I learned it in AA and hearing it from others in the program.
I still can get upset at things and let them bother me. I have to tell myself to "let it go", "live and let live"..... And heck....I still cry and that's okay. It is human and I am releasing emotions which I don't want to stick around and cause me to want to drink again.

-- Edited by hopefulone on Monday 1st of June 2015 06:31:00 AM

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

2granddaughters wrote:
Read HOW IT WORKS and tell me where i am "defensive" . It took me to follow HOW IT WORKS to get my own 26 yrs (July 18, 1989).

Congrats on getting 26 years, 2g.

Pais · Newbie

Your title sounds accurate. Unfortunately, some sponsors believe in "taking charge" instead of guiding their spouses through the Steps. Lacking true humility, some think that they know what is in the best interests of another, often with unfortunate results (that was a hard lesson for me to learn as a sponsor). In choosing a sponsor, it is best to listen very carefully to what potential sponsors say in meetings (noting self-honest remarks and how they treated problems using the Steps) and how they treat others. It is important to understand that as alcoholics, we are a sick bunch and therefore fallible, and that is why we need a Power greater than ourselves to rely on. Sometimes that Power is simply the group itself or good orderly direction or whatever concept or idea is suitable. The important point here is that we understand is that there is a HP and we're not it. Still, it remains, that atheist or not, we stay sober by practising the program as best we can. Interestingly, a member recently remarked that he had been to some meetings in Minnesota where they do not practise sponsorship at all! So tell your wife not to worry. She is loved. Her answers will come to her.

StillTipsyMcStagger · Member

She should fire her sponsor and find someone better suited to her.