Working the Steps....as suggested

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

RE: Messages about priorities with newcomers

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

RE: Working the Steps....as suggested

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Locked in violent agreement

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

I love you more each day :)

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I take my sobriety deathly seriously PC....I must admit I'm a little confused as to why that other thread was closed. I'm not a big believer in that. I have one question....Maybe you can help with me with it. I was told I should share my experience here...Which I try to do.

We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not.

BB pg 58

That has been my experience....Right out of the book. If someone comes onto an AA site and claims they have found one....Do I have the right to question what it is? I know in a meeting I do.....I just don't see it very often. Any help would be appreciated.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I didn't close the thread SC. I think my point is you are calling some other people's way different and easier and softer when it is probably the same basic way as yours. This may not be the case all the time but I see you debating folks that probably have worked steps, had spiritual awakenings, and surrendered like the BB talks about. It was not soft or easy when I got sober...or Dean...or any of the rest of us. I think I followed the path of the big book fairly well but I did a lot of things...I know my recovery doesn't sound like yours sometimes and sometimes it might not be perfect BB recovery. I dunno. I'm not perfect. Willingness and a good program shows up in what we do and how we live. Personally, I really can't say if you have a good program or not. I know you have great BB knowledge but don't hear much about how the program has helped you live in this world as a worker, friend, family member...To me it could be stated that you are trying to go the easier and softer route because you talk recovery and quote it but don't discuss much of how you use it to live life on life's terms. Of course I'm sure you actually do have those things but choose not to share. I'm also betting that you probably just got irritated when I suggested your program was an easier and softer way. That's how other's may feel when you judge their programs. I don't believe your program is easier or softer...especially since I know it involved a huge surrender, much pain, loss, then total willingness to live a new way. Hence, it would be dumb of me to argue with you.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I know your program is legit AA because you are sober and had the experiences I described (those basic ones discussed in the BB) and can discuss them. I'd have know you better to pronounce any other opinions. The BB knowledge is certainly impressive

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

"Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but
we invariably find that at some time in the past we
have made decisions based on self which later placed
us in a position to be hurt.
So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own
making."

Pinky - you reminded me of a big book quote LOL

It's wonderful we all get the opportunity to look at our part in things - find our fears underneath and replace them with faith. CHOICES! YAY!

So much better than being a puddle on a bar stool ya know?

I am so grateful for you guys. xooxooxxooooo It's all learning :)

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

And I so needed to be here today - and de-stress after my crazy move over the weekend. Thank you for always being here family of choice xoxoxxo

Angell · Senior Member

Stepchild, I'm not PC of course, but I would like to take a sincere look at your question.

I am a real alcoholic of the type spoken about in the Big Book. I was the alumni of three treatment centers, two detoxes, a halfway house and a court order to attend AA by the time I was thirteen years old. I got sober at 27 years old. Though they are loath to do it these days, I was diagnosed as a hopeless case by multiple doctors and did a stint in a state hospital.

Today I am sober twenty-two years. You've read some of my shares here and few would claim that I don't have a higher power that loves me. I'm happy. I'm dying for crying out loud and dealing with chronic pain such that I am typing this with my head strapped to the chair because my muscles can't hold it up any longer...and I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. Clearly something is working.

And yet, I don't do things just the way they book says that 'they' did it. Don't get me wrong; I've taken much from the program and wouldn't be here without it. There are aspects of the program that I still use in my life - and some I don't. Some parts of 'my' program are not from AA at all. That does not mean that I don't work the 'AA' program. I do not work it perfectly; I don't even try to work it perfectly. I've gotten more pragmatic as I've gotten older and having found something that works, I no longer care whether it conforms or is 'right'.

I think some of the problems/division/tension is apparent in your post above. You said, "That has been my experience...." but what you quoted was, "We..." Yes, I know what the book says, but when I share my experience I begin with the word 'I' or 'my' not 'We'. Your experience is how you did it. Perhaps, "I thought I could find an easier softer way, but I could not." The fact that I am sober and do this differently than you proves that. When I share MY experience by saying WE - it sounds like I'm giving the one and only true way - and that's simply not true.

Do you have the right to question what it is? Sure. But I'm going to wager that your question is a lot like the fellow at our Thursday night men's meeting that declares regularly, "I'd love to have someone come in here and tell me that it changed out there. If any of you slip and find it got better, do me a favor and come back and tell me so I can join you. Funny though, in almost 40 years, no one has ever come back and said that."

Do you really think that if someone did, he'd give up his seat in AA and go back out drinking? Do you think he'd join that fellow? Not a chance. It's showmanship on his part. At least that's how I interpret it - could be wrong. Likewise, and because you take your sobriety deathly serious, would you really take anything they said to heart? I'd wager you're going to stick with what you know works - which is just what you've been doing. You're not going to take a chance on working a method only successfully tested by a handful of folks when you've got this perfectly good working program. So why the question in the first place? I think to some it may seem that it is only so that you can tell them that they are wrong - or where they are deviating from the book - or... but not to rejoice with them.

I am not surprised that you don't see it very often. It's unpleasant when it happens. Heck, I don't join in the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting because I am not Christian. Not only am I a bit stymied by what to do when they begin, "Whose Father?" but I want to let the newcomer know that 'God as you understand him' is not a euphemism for an old white guy in the sky with a cool beard. After going up after a meeting to speak to them, I've had three newcomers this year tell me that their sponsor has told them not to talk to me because I don't believe in God. It took most of my twenty-two years to get to a point where that doesn't bother me any longer.

We've got a fellow up here who has thirty-three years sober. He got angry at me one day and began screaming at me. My body gave out and I fell to all fours in the snow gagging and coughing up blood. I couldn't breathe. He stood over me, continuing to scream at me - I could feel the spittle hitting me on the back of my neck. His topic? Ridiculing me for my HP. Because he believes, "...in the Big Book and Jesus Christ not some stupid-ass new age bs." What newcomer is going to return for that treatment? What member of AA is going to share a different way in the face of that level of acceptance?

Personally I think the thread was closed because it seemed divisive. Everyone wants sobriety and yet it started to feel a bit like Congress when the left and the right refuse to work together for our common good. You're not a bad American because you don't believe as I do, and I'm not a bad American because I don't believe as you do. Likewise, you're not a bad AA-er because you don't stay happy, joyous and free - as well as sober, exactly the way I do...and either am I.

Peace, love and happiness.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I don't come onto this site to talk about how wonderful and lovey dovey my life is...Or how connected to God I am. I find that very self serving. My life is better than it's ever been...I'll leave it at that. I come on this site to share what I know about this common solution that we all have....For the sick and suffering alcoholic that just can't seem to find anything that works. When I hear things like these steps are just suggestions....I'm going to disagree with it....Just like I would in a meeting. There are a lot of requirements in this program....I'll stick to what they are. Here are some major ones....

There is a solution.

Almost none of us liked the self-searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation.

BB pg 25

That tells me that I have to do these things if I want a successfull end result. Anything else would be bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Then they offer clear cut directions on how we do those things....Take it or leave it. And this isn't my program....This is the program that the founders of AA laid out in the book. I don't post here for you or me PC....I post for the guy shaking in a dark room somewhere scared out of his mind of dying from this illness. That's the one I care about. Because that one was me.

Hello its me · Veteran Member

Interesting day on the boards.

I believe in love and tolerance of other's paths of recovery. This board does say it's AA, even Alcoholics Anonymous. So I don't think anyone should be faulted for trying to communicate the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. If my grandmother makes a delicious chocolate pie and I want to replicate that, I follow her recipe EXACTLY. Otherwise I might wind up with chocolate pudding or even a real mess. The Big Book does give us a recipe for recovery that the first 100+ people wrote in common. It just makes sense to hand out that recipe.

If other people want to do other things, that's their business. But a newcomer should have the opportunity to hear the truth about the AA program of recovery.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

So what if there are no newcomers in a meeting SC? Do you leave? Also, what to you gain by listening to others than if you already know the whole big book? I share for my fellow alcoholics. PERIOD. We need each other. I need you...but by your statement, you have zero need for any of us except those that may be coming here for the first time and are new to sobriety and the program. Very humble. I'm sure the BB emphasizes that...NOT.

And as for your program being the one that is "The Program" when others are not. I read in plenty of your writing ways that your program isn't like the one laid out in the book and other's have brought up those points too...that's fine. You are just a drunk like the rest of us trying to use the book, what's in it, and other alcoholics to stay sober another day. You are not following a perfect program and the only righteous one or one of a few working the book as laid out perfectly. Take off the halo.

I don't know that sharing aspects of your life and how the program helps you to live is self-serving at all. I think appointing yourself as the messiah of newcomers sharing the only true AA message could be looked at as self serving. I also don't come here or to meetings to disagree with people. The program tells us to identify and not compare with what others say. If I was looking for a sponsor, I would not just want someone that knows the book, but someone that is happy, joyous and free and can discuss how the steps, principles of the program and actions that we undertake in AA lead to that. Just discussing what is in print and tossing it out there is shallow and 1 dimensional. It's like the difference between a true Christian and a holy roller.

Anyhow, I am largely playing devil's advocate here. I'm cool with what you have to say. I know AA needs you and your message Stepchild. It's all good! I've learned a lot from you. I am glad you are here and I really mean it. The above stuff might sound harsh but so was a lot of the stuff my sponsor, grand sponsor, and others said to me to help change my rigid, close-minded thinking. Take what you want and leave the rest (even though that's not part of AA lol).

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I don't look at following directions as being close minded PC. I look at it as doing something the right way. You can have all the opinions of me that you want. It doesn't bother me. It really doesn't. Am I going to change my message because there are people on this site that know other ways that this works...No....I'm not. I'm going to stick with what works...And that is doing precisely what they did.

As far as there being no newcomers in the meeting goes? There are always plenty of people there that have been trying for years to do it their way to hear it.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Hello it's me:

I'm betting that pretty much ALL of us would tell a newcomer to read the big book, follow the path laid out, work the steps, go to meetings, get a sponsor (well maybe not all but most I would think). We'd be idiots if we didn't espouse that. Yet people still argue over what they think is the "right and exact AA" and it happens with hair-splitting and divisive arguments when like I just said - We all seem to agree on the basics and that those things are things you really need to do exactly as discussed in the big book.

My interpretation is that words like exactly, precisely, and thoroughly really apply to our surrender to the program, the steps, the principles and being willing to live an entirely new life with new ideas. That needs to be done with such vigor I cannot express how important that is in my eyes. Yes, the big book can be used as directions...but I have also seen people take 2 radically different stances and justify almost opposite behaviors and views while both of them are using quotes from the BB. Pretty sure some religious fanatics have done "exactly" what they "thought" was in the bible or other scripture and yet they committed atrocities. When one person thinks they are the literally interpreting and acting upon a book as the perfect model for everyone else...Well...Those are things we have to be careful about because it creates disunity more than it helps.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

You are following directions as you interpret them through your fallible and imperfect perception. You also were taught how to follow them from another fallible and imperfect person (a sponsor - which is way better than not having one of course). Hence, you can't appoint yourself as the one person following directions appropriately while others are not. That is not too different than reading the bible and saying you understand it perfectly and then appointing yourself the messiah while you go out and save all the poor unfortunates that don't have as perfect an understanding as you. Dangerous territory.

Angell · Senior Member

Hello its me wrote:
I believe in love and tolerance of other's paths of recovery.

This deserves to be ditto'd imo. So Ditto. (Which is also my cat's name...that's why I capitalized it. :) )

The Big Book does give us a recipe for recovery that the first 100+ people wrote in common. It just makes sense to hand out that recipe.

It is my understanding that this is more or less untrue. When Bill wrote out the twelve steps for the book, he was aiming for the number twelve to match the number of apostles. Prior to this, there weren't twelve steps. In the days when the first 100 were getting sober, prospects were brought into the other room to get on their knees and accept Jesus Christ before they could continue. You're too young. You're too female. You're black. That is how the first one hundred got sober. The recipe was written after the chocolate pie was cooked.

If other people want to do other things, that's their business. But a newcomer should have the opportunity to hear the truth about the AA program of recovery.

I agree. But the truth is that more has been revealed. They DID only know a little - just like they said. When I've been asked to described the AA program I share the three pertinent idea's in How it Works (a,b,c) and add Trust God, Clean house, Help others. How a person does that is immaterial in my opinion. If they accept those three idea's and do those three things - then they are working the AA program (imo).

Anyway, I don't think we are too far apart here and I think we could easily bridge the distance with love, tolerance and patience - which I'm betting, we both found here. :)

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I'm going to end with these three quotes....You can interpret this any way you want.

To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book. (Foreword)

Further on, clear - cut directions are given showing how we recovered. (pg 29)

If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us. To some extent we have become God-conscious. (pg 85)

I think putting any kind of twist on that is dangerous territory. I'm done.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Well stated Angell

Hello its me · Veteran Member

PC,

I hear a lot of stuff out there at meetings and even here on this board that substantially distorts what the Big Book says. It results in confusion and sobriety failure for people. And death. I can't believe the number of people I've seen die around the rooms and I think some of those deaths are due to those folks getting conflicting information about how to recover. They get confused and either drink themselves to death or commit suicide.

But when the horse dies, it is wise to dismount, so I think I will.

-- Edited by Hello its me on Tuesday 2nd of September 2014 04:37:59 PM

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Angell wrote:
When Bill wrote out the twelve steps for the book, he was aiming for the number twelve to match the number of apostles.

Sorry Angell....That's not true.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Cool beans SC. Keep coming back.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Hello its me wrote:
PC,

I hear a lot of stuff out there at meetings and even here on this board that substantially distorts what the Big Book says. It results in confusion and sobriety failure for people. And death. I can't believe the number of people I've seen die around the rooms and I think some of those deaths are due to those folks getting conflicting information about how to recover. They get confused and either drink themselves to death or commit suicide.

I do agree with that.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Oy...FAR more people die from not working the steps, not going to meetings at all, not getting sponsors...The information is there. Sure people share stupid stuff in meetings and here too. I think a close minded view of recovery such that you no longer need the help or to listen to your fellows is pretty ridiculous as AA would fall apart if everyone disregarded that it's a we program. I think that would result in people dying. Also I've seen many driven out by fanaticism that resembles religion more than a spiritual program of growth. Point is, misinformation may be subjective as we share based on our interpretations. No information and no AA is what kills alcoholics most.

-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 2nd of September 2014 04:43:43 PM

Angell · Senior Member

Stepchild wrote:
Angell wrote:
When Bill wrote out the twelve steps for the book, he was aiming for the number twelve to match the number of apostles.
Sorry Angell....That's not true.

I think this is the crux of the matter SC. I could be wrong, but I don't think you are sorry that you are correcting me about what you know to be true. I may be wrong - I hope I am, but I don't see it.

I must admit, I don't know it to be true. I DO know that I heard him say it. In AA Comes of Age, he alludes to it, saying that he paused in his work realized he had twelve steps and without any rhyme or reason made a connection to the twelve apostles. In a personal talk later, he states definitively that it was because of this connection that it felt right to stop and not add any more.

Which, incidentally, happened in 1938 - everyone prior to this (which is everyone who contributed to the Big Book) was doing the six steps.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I am also glad I go to meetings and come here for the purpose of learning, growing, and connecting to my fellows and not to just judge if I think others are wrong or right in their shares. I would prefer to learn and grow than to lecture and judge (ideally). That is more AA to me.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

That last bit being said, I also know there are folks that over complicate the crap out of AA and they can be aided by the "Read the book and follow the directions!" approach as opposed to consigning their BS and terminal uniqueness. I know that type of drunk too and SC would be better to carry the message to that type of drunk probably. So yeah...violent agreement lol.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

I agree Angell - rigorous honesty is so crucial for me. Even slights like this effect my spirituality. It takes a lot of practice. I have a hard time not giving my girlfriends compliments that I believe to be untrue just to be nice. Some lying is just social - and engrained - and it takes so much time for the fog to lift and the awareness to smack me in the face... and sometimes... I have to use a few of my crutches again to make it through... with love and support, that I find here - I slowly let them go. My parents needed me to be perfect all the time - so it is very difficult for me to remember that this program is simply about progress, and I can relax and learn - as pinky so eloquently states. Step child - I see that you care so much, and you are so grateful for your sobriety... but the fate of the world is not on your shoulders my friend... thank you so much for all you have done to help... being responsible is really a virtue. Taking a balanced approach to it so as you can offer the world your best, most clear and serene mind is something you will surely just keep getting better at like we all do - and are - when we keep coming back.

Thanks for caring and being so wonderful MIP family xoxoxoxox

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Angell wrote:
In AA Comes of Age, he alludes to it, saying that he paused in his work realized he had twelve steps and without any rhyme or reason made a connection to the twelve apostles. In a personal talk later, he states definitively that it was because of this connection that it felt right to stop and not add any more.

That I believe. I don't think he knew how many steps he had till he put numbers next to them...That I've read....And heard. He thought 12 was a good spiritual number....And that's what we ended up with. That's a lot different than saying he was aiming for 12 steps to match the apostles. That just didn't happen. Not trying to be a pain here....Just calling it like it is.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Stepchild wrote:
I I'm a little confused as to why that other thread was closed.
___________________________________________________________
The same reason this one was . In those threads (and this one) you had the last word. lets move on.