Alcoholics Anonymous
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Anti AA Rhetoric


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date:
Anti AA Rhetoric
Permalink  
 


I often come across people who have very negative thoughts about AA. They talk about it like it's either some sort of evil cult that's after all your worldly possessions and your first born child or like it's some sort of spiritual Amway that's brainwashed you into trying to sell your new found "faith" to anyone who will listen.

One thing I've noticed is that some of the most vehement anti AA people are former AA members. Maybe because the people who leave feel animosity because AA didn't deliver on what was promised or they don't want to take responsibility for their own failure to follow the simple program so they lash out and justify their quitting by insisting that AA is a cult and that they were "too strong willed" to be brainwashed, etc.

My question is this, when you encounter the people in your life who express these thoughts and feelings, whether they're former AA members or just people with ridiculous misconceptions, how do you respond? I love a good heated debate so I usually get right in their face and give them a verbal bitch slapping that usually leaves them feeling quite humiliated and embarrassed for being foolish enough to condemn something they know so little about. It makes me feel good and I'm sure I do it more for my own ego then to defend AA. Lets just say that I doubt Bill W. would approve.

So again, how do you respond? Have you ever experienced discrimination or felt alienated by people once they've found out that you're in AA? At work, socially, with in your family, etc?

__________________

 



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 700
Date:
Permalink  
 

Well Tipsy....For those that knock AA..I respond by saying "It works for me" and thats all that matters. :)

It takes a bigger person, to walk away from some of these idiots....then it does to react to them.

As for friends and family? They would rather see me sober, then the way it was.

"The best reaction is no reaction"

Took this big kid, a long time to learn that one..:)

Keep on truckin Bud!!




-- Edited by Phil at 14:30, 2007-12-14

__________________
Live each day as if it were your last...because tomorrow? It might be.


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date:
Permalink  
 

Phil, I hope that one day I'm grown up enough to be as diplomatic as you...unfortunately at the moment I'm a very immature little man who cant resist a good argument.

Seriously though Phil, say you're at some sort of social gathering and some obnoxious knowitall blowhard starts piping up and spouting off untrue nonsense about AA that he "knows to be true" because his cousin's wife's uncle went to AA and it ruined his life and turned him into drooling bible thumping brainwashed drone...you're telling me you wouldn't speak up and put this yutz in his place?

I don't believe you.

You seem to have this AA thing figured out but nobody has that much serenity smile.gif



-- Edited by Tipsy McStagger at 14:39, 2007-12-14

__________________

 



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 700
Date:
Permalink  
 

No bud..I dont have it all figured out.....and Ive been around here for about 9000 days..:)...have learned everything the Hard Way...and still fall into traps..

As for some of these people? Ide still quietly ask them to step outside...and wele discuss it...

And there would only be one of us..walking back in...:)

It takes a lot to make me react....but theres a line there somewhere...If Im pushed hard enough....???

LOOK OUT!!

But..its better then it used to be..:)

Thanks to AA.



__________________
Live each day as if it were your last...because tomorrow? It might be.


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 6464
Date:
Permalink  
 

Hey TM,
If a person's family reacted like that, then that AA should probably limit their time and exposure to them. As far as anyone else besides family, I would ask myself why it is that I'm hanging out with idiots like that.

You can always tell an idiot, but you can tell him much.  <-----one of my favorites

-- Edited by StPeteDean at 15:37, 2007-12-14

__________________

 Gratitude = Happiness!







Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 33
Date:
Permalink  
 

Meh-- Ill sit there and bash AA with all the rest of em, and fully admit that I'm pist that it came to that for me, and that im powerless over alcohol. But hey, lifes a bitch (and then you die, i just chose to die later rather than sooner) but what the hell- and like phil said, if anyone talks too much crap, i'm a way meaner bastard when im sober than when im drunk...drunk i brawl for fun, but sober, im in a constant state of agitatation and annoyance at the various vicissitudes of life (real or imagined, mostly imagined im shure), and am more in the mood to just break stuff and move on...

Seriously though, the reason alot of people (X AAers) bash on AA is NOT just because AA didnt help them, but because they didnt need it. Beleive it or not, I have met alot of X AA'ers who really have gotten better and can now have a few beers and not wakeup 2 months later naked in a gutter 3 states away, not remembering how they got there. The seasoned AAers might say that person wasnt a 'real' alcohlic, and that person will say 'F*** that i drank a bottle a day for 10 years, I just got better, etc.'

Example, I know a close friend of out family was a real bad alcoholic. When he was in his 60s, he finally went to some therapist that brought out repressed memories of various acts of sodomy, etc. that he endured at the hands of Yup, none other than a catholic priest, when he was like 8. He worked thru this and now, the guy can have some wine with dinner, without pulling out a gun on his best friend for lookin at his woman the wrong way (true story). Also had a couple of discussion leaders in my DUI education program that were 'EX" AAers and NAers, and had been sober and fine for years and years without meetings, and were like yeah, we just dont needem anymore really...etc.etc... i've heard it enough that i have to beleive it...

The thing about AA i think is that the rules are very strict, because the program is designed to reach EVERYONE, including the sickest of us, and those of us that arent as sick as others feel like the rules are a little too draconian, and a little too constraining, time consuming, extraneus, superfluous, duplicative, whatever you wanna call it. The rules of the program are obviously designed to be as universal as possible, and because some are sicker than others but the rules have to be uniform, its necessarily the case that theres gonna be stuff in there that isnt that useful to some-- thats why you gotta comeup with the program that works for you, and thats fine, as long as your honest with yourself and can recognize when its not really working.

I have met alot of people that claim they've gotten better and that really seem to have. Of course this begs the question of whether they were really 'alcoholics' proper in the first place, but whatever.

ANYWAYS,

Point is id agree with the dood on some level, and if he went off and got outta like id be like jesus christ, maybe you still need the program huh? Then if he got further outta line id prolly just askim iffe wants to fight and iffe said no id prolly start talkin shit toim till he either took a swing or went away...cause im tite like that...

Anyways comin up on 20 days....YAY

__________________
The only thing worse than being sober is being drunk...

Keep up with my alleged 'progress' and general rantings, or just laugh at me, if you want: 
http://diaryofamadman11.blogspot.com


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 69
Date:
Permalink  
 

So which steps dont I have to work since Im probably not the sickest and will I still have the spiritual awakening? You gotta be kidding right. Maybe you are confusing the "rules" with whatever sh*t they tell you in the fellowship like "dont date for a year or if you drank everyday then go to a meeting everyday". But the steps are custom fit to whoever takes them. All they are are self evaluation tools that free us from self centeredness. Maybe its the carry the message step that may seem like the one you dont need. I mean why would a not so sick recovered alcoholic need to go help some poor skid row bastard. Of coarse maybe those freedom from self steps didnt take if thats the problem.

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date:
Permalink  
 

I hear what you're saying Zaratustra, the way I justified walking away from AA in the past was by convincing myself that I wasn't really an alcoholic. I'm not going to bother listing the excuses I made to myself for how and why I ended up in AA but I realize now that in my case the were all complete bullshit. I'm not saying that everyone who comes to AA and then leaves is an alcoholic in denial because I'm sure some do go on to manage their drinking and maintain what they consider to be a normal life...I've just never met one. Oh I've met many ex AA'ers who claim that they are doing it but ask them the tough questions like "Has alcohol had a negative impact on your relationship, career, health, etc. in any way since you left AA?" and the answer is inevitably yes. Usually followed by justifying and minimizing, "Everyone misses work at some point in their lives due to a hangover." or "Who hasn't had to much to drink and acted silly and embarrassed themselves?".

The way I see it people who claim that they ended up in AA due to some other issue or some confusion in their lives aren't convincing and their arguments against AA are weak. But hey, if they want to live "managing" their drinking for the rest of their lives all the power to em...the people I see in AA who are genuinely happy don't have to fight that battle anymore and that's far more appealing to me then a lifelong struggle to drink like a "normal person".

__________________

 

TLH


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 576
Date:
Permalink  
 

Tipsy McStagger wrote:

I often come across people who have very negative thoughts about AA. They talk about it like it's either some sort of evil cult that's after all your worldly possessions and your first born child or like it's some sort of spiritual Amway that's brainwashed you into trying to sell your new found "faith" to anyone who will listen.

One thing I've noticed is that some of the most vehement anti AA people are former AA members. Maybe because the people who leave feel animosity because AA didn't deliver on what was promised or they don't want to take responsibility for their own failure to follow the simple program so they lash out and justify their quitting by insisting that AA is a cult and that they were "too strong willed" to be brainwashed, etc.

My question is this, when you encounter the people in your life who express these thoughts and feelings, whether they're former AA members or just people with ridiculous misconceptions, how do you respond? I love a good heated debate so I usually get right in their face and give them a verbal bitch slapping that usually leaves them feeling quite humiliated and embarrassed for being foolish enough to condemn something they know so little about. It makes me feel good and I'm sure I do it more for my own ego then to defend AA. Lets just say that I doubt Bill W. would approve.

So again, how do you respond? Have you ever experienced discrimination or felt alienated by people once they've found out that you're in AA? At work, socially, with in your family, etc?



So first off, just out of curiousity- do you think you're the best spokesperson for the validity of aa? My argument for AA is usually the millions of people who have gotten sober. Those who aren't successful yet only have so much ground to stand on in that particular argument, and sooner or later the person they are arguing with will ask, "So how has AA worked for you and your sobriety?" I myself have to check myself when stuff like that happens because I get caught up in that whole idea that I'm the self appointed lesson teacher who has been assigned to straighten everyone out. I'm not that person, and I find I'm a lot happier not trying to teach the world their lessons. It's just not my job. I'm no pillar of virtue and beyond that, I need to do my own laundry before I start telling people to do theirs.

Anyhow- I have mixed feelings about AA, so I understand what people are saying sometimes. I like AA for an anchor that keeps me on the straight and narrow. I dislike that AA is so easy to abuse, that some people tend to not stay impartial and try to use it to foist their own agendas on others. I love that there are some great  people involved in the organization who try to soften that drawback by being the voice of reason or by just being great people.


 

I dislike that it's so easy for most people to somehow think that christianity is the main religion of AA (they do the lords prayer at my meetings, for instance- I just treat it like a neat poem but still- please decide whether it's "higher power" or "Jehovahs Witness".)


 

I think AA gets used sometimes, as I've written before- that some people realize they can come back no matter what and so just make a ritual of falling off the wagon and coming back (and I've been there on that one, and I know many people can't help it- but I get the inkling sometimes that some people actually make a pattern of using  AA to absolve their guilt between binges. None of my business, but just an observation.


I will tell you all a story, just because. I've never talked to anyone about it because I am who I am- a pain in the ass for myself and sometimes maybe too clever for my own well being. It's just one tiny instance in my AA experience but it might give you an idea why some people who experience AA briefly and then leave might get the idea that AA doesn't work. It's not a defining moment of anything, just one tiny instance.

I am a self helping kind of guy- it takes a lot for me to ask for help. I'm the guy who helps people and fixes stuff, always have been. Tenacious and resourceful and calm under pressure and all kinds of other stuff that pretty much runs contrary to the me who can't drink alcohol because it has so much power over me. But anyhow- despite all that I went to AA and took what I could from the program and did pretty OK. I was sober for a few months attending meetings about 4-5 nights a week. I have a very difficult time asking for help and admitting my fallibility and humanity, but I grit my teeth and just do it when I feel I have to. There were a couple guys involved in my home group who discovered that I didn't have a sponsor and were pushing me to find one. They had been pushing me to speak more at meetings and making comments to that effect, and while I spoke a bit I really have a hard time public speaking and I have a small hangup of thinking what I have to say isn't really worth much. Long story there, I'll get to it another day. Anyhow- eventually I decided if I was going to do it I guess I'd better do it, and so I asked one of those guys if he would be my sponsor. He asked me a bunch of questions about my drinking and my life (one of which was how and what I drank when I was drinking and another was how my company operated when I was drinking- and a few more I don't recall.) After I talked with him a bit he sort of scoffed and said, "You'll have to find someone else. You aren't screwed up enough for me to be your sponsor." Now I understand that he can't really knopw anything about me having just seen me at meetings for those months, and he can't know how difficult it was for me to ask for help- but those guys just dropped it and I went home pretty deflated and disappointed and the next day after work I stopped at the store near my house and got a twelve pack and started drinking again. I was a little nervous that someone would come find me sooner or later as I knew quite a few people in the program from around town and business and recreational activities, but really I just saw a couple people here and there and they never said a word. I suppose I actually wanted someone to say something and drag my ass back in, but that never happened. There's a long story in me wanting someone to give a sh!t, but I won't get into that just today. I have some work to do and I have been working on that story, figuring it out piece by piece and writing it down in the little notebook I keep in my back pocket and write stuff in.


 

Anyhow- it took me a while to go back in, and I still just use AA as my anchor. Maybe someday I'll do the rest of it- right now I have some things I need to work out, and I work actively in that direction. I get better and better, believe it or not. I couldn't do it without the anchor that AA gives me. Just sayin'.


 

But anyhow- AA is perfect for some people, and it's alright and sufficient for some people, and for some people it just doesn't work for them. Sometimes people change, and while it used to be not for them after they change a bit AA becomes okay for them. I come from a whole family of drunks and AAs and alanons and NAs and I've seen quite a bit of it.


 

Plus people attack what they are afraid of. weirdfaceStupid but a lot of times true.  And that one guy did that study and found that the success rate of AA was atrocious (comparing the number of people who tried to the number of failures and successes- it didn't sort out the people who were there by court order or the people who were there a month, and it didn't seperate types of alcoholics or note people with mental disorders or anything like that- it was just a lame study that gave naysayers ammo, IMHO), which doesn't help. It was negligent of him to publish that study without also including the results for other programs and the number of people AA has helped, but people seem to want to see the bad stuff.


 

Anyhow- I don't say AA doesn't work- I've seen it work enough times to know that would be patently foolish and wrong. But sometimes there is no circumventing the firm resolve of a complete jackass who insists they are right. biggrin



__________________
TLH


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 576
Date:
Permalink  
 

Zarathustra wrote:

Meh-- Ill sit there and bash AA with all the rest of em, and fully admit that I'm pist that it came to that for me, and that im powerless over alcohol. But hey, lifes a bitch (and then you die, i just chose to die later rather than sooner) but what the hell- and like phil said, if anyone talks too much crap, i'm a way meaner bastard when im sober than when im drunk...drunk i brawl for fun, but sober, im in a constant state of agitatation and annoyance at the various vicissitudes of life (real or imagined, mostly imagined im shure), and am more in the mood to just break stuff and move on...

Seriously though, the reason alot of people (X AAers) bash on AA is NOT just because AA didnt help them, but because they didnt need it. Beleive it or not, I have met alot of X AA'ers who really have gotten better and can now have a few beers and not wakeup 2 months later naked in a gutter 3 states away, not remembering how they got there. The seasoned AAers might say that person wasnt a 'real' alcohlic, and that person will say 'F*** that i drank a bottle a day for 10 years, I just got better, etc.'

Example, I know a close friend of out family was a real bad alcoholic. When he was in his 60s, he finally went to some therapist that brought out repressed memories of various acts of sodomy, etc. that he endured at the hands of Yup, none other than a catholic priest, when he was like 8. He worked thru this and now, the guy can have some wine with dinner, without pulling out a gun on his best friend for lookin at his woman the wrong way (true story). Also had a couple of discussion leaders in my DUI education program that were 'EX" AAers and NAers, and had been sober and fine for years and years without meetings, and were like yeah, we just dont needem anymore really...etc.etc... i've heard it enough that i have to beleive it...

The thing about AA i think is that the rules are very strict, because the program is designed to reach EVERYONE, including the sickest of us, and those of us that arent as sick as others feel like the rules are a little too draconian, and a little too constraining, time consuming, extraneus, superfluous, duplicative, whatever you wanna call it. The rules of the program are obviously designed to be as universal as possible, and because some are sicker than others but the rules have to be uniform, its necessarily the case that theres gonna be stuff in there that isnt that useful to some-- thats why you gotta comeup with the program that works for you, and thats fine, as long as your honest with yourself and can recognize when its not really working.

I have met alot of people that claim they've gotten better and that really seem to have. Of course this begs the question of whether they were really 'alcoholics' proper in the first place, but whatever.

ANYWAYS,

Point is id agree with the dood on some level, and if he went off and got outta like id be like jesus christ, maybe you still need the program huh? Then if he got further outta line id prolly just askim iffe wants to fight and iffe said no id prolly start talkin shit toim till he either took a swing or went away...cause im tite like that...

Anyways comin up on 20 days....YAY




 Oh shoot this is a good one! People who don't need AA are always telling me how I could drink in moderation and just use some self control. I'll bet some of those people think AA is B.S. too!


 

I'm getting too old to ask people to step outside anymore- too old and too tired of that stuff. But yeah- people exhasperate me some times. Sometimes I want to ask them to step outside and then just lock the door behind them. biggrin



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 33
Date:
Permalink  
 

Yeah dood, i wasnt really talkin about the steps there... the steps are solid id say-- I think some people need 9 & 11 alot more than other people, but either way, those are still good benchmarks...12, yeah, i donno about 12 im def not there yet, or even close to it- but helpin people out always makes you feel better, doesn't it?

But yeah, im talking about the 'dicta' in AA, not the written rules. The stuff about the dating, the absolute assurance that an alcoholic can never cross the border back away from being an alcoholic, d the stuff about all the things your sposed to do to maintain your sobriety once youve gotten a decent hold onnit, etc.

My point, as convoluted as it probly was, sorta went to that...Some of these recovered alkies ive known actually can drink like normal people without having a fullon relapse. Of course a load of them cant, and thats why the program strictly prohibits that- because if the program was like 'well, maybe some of you, a handful perhaps, can actually drink again like normal people once you work through all your issues that made you drink unhealthily" then youd obv have half of the entire AA population out there in the bars again and passing out in the gutter, etc., so thats not said. But ive mettem, they exist, and they walk among us, and i think people get pistoff at the program because alot of the real veterans are just way too indoctrinated with program, and are very inflexible in thier thinking, and they think that none of thier rules have any exceptions, etc. Some AAers really do have the presumptuous and sanctimonous attitude like that. Kinda like a lot of us lawyers are real crooks and assholes, which gives our profession a bad name. Dont get me wrong, like 98% of AAers ive met are great people, but the many are sorta tarred with the sins of the few....

Nother example, dood comes up to me and my mom in an AA meeting, and i make a joke when he asks how im doin, sayin well, its friday night and im sober, so crappy, but other than that, pretty well...and he gets all serious on me sayin i should take stuff more seriously...okay, thats fine, i can appreciate that, even though i hate that attitude.. then he turns to my mom and is like "and YOU...you need to stop enabling him. Your an enabler." Well, i dont even talk to her much and beleive you me, shes not an enabler, in fact, i bet she prays every damn night i that i quit drinkin-- I was like to the dood WOW-- have fun tryin to stay sober with that attitude, bud...

So ya, there is a contingent of persumptuous asshole morons in AA...i think we've all seenem.

Doesnt really matter that it isnt perfect, because for alot of us, its the last house on the street, period.





__________________
The only thing worse than being sober is being drunk...

Keep up with my alleged 'progress' and general rantings, or just laugh at me, if you want: 
http://diaryofamadman11.blogspot.com
TLH


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 576
Date:
Permalink  
 

Yeah- I never have got the humorless crowd. The position we are in as recovering alcoholics- Well I myself can't help but laugh.

There are so many things about the position we are in that are ironic- the one thing we want to do most, we can't. We have a disease that tries to tell us we don't have it. They talk about how the medical community are isolating genes, which would mean they could maybe isolate the gene that makes us alcoholics. So in light of that information maybe the big pharm companies will be working on that somehow, formulating a cure that will allow us to have just one drink like normal people.

























































Being an alcoholic, all I can ask is, "One drink? What's the fricken point in that?" biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin

__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 6464
Date:
Permalink  
 

I don't know what this has to do with the topic, perspective I guess. When I met my wife I had three years sobriety and was attending about 3-6 meetings a week depending on how many morning (home group) meetings I got to. Well when she found out how many meetings that I was going to (we'd been dating for about 6 months) she stopped seeing me.
She didn't say anything about it untill about a year later when we were dating for the second time.

We had a long conversation about AA and the spiritual aspect of the program, how we worked on character defects to change ourselves so that we didn't have to drink. It was then that she admitted she thought that I wasn't doing well (the first time we dated) because I was going to "so many meetings".

-- Edited by StPeteDean at 18:41, 2007-12-14

__________________

 Gratitude = Happiness!







Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date:
Permalink  
 

TLH wrote:





So first off, just out of curiousity- do you think you're the best spokesperson for the validity of aa?




Ha ha, hell no!

I just find the temptation to educate cynical fools irresistible smile.gif

__________________

 

TLH


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 576
Date:
Permalink  
 

THAT I understand! biggrin

StPeteDean wrote:

I don't know what this has to do with the topic, perspective I guess. When I met my wife I had three years sobriety and was attending about 3-6 meetings a week depending on how many morning (home group) meetings I got to. Well when she found out how many meetings that I was going to (we'd been dating for about 6 months) she stopped seeing me.
She didn't say anything about it untill about a year later when we were dating for the second time.

We had a long conversation about AA and the spiritual aspect of the program, how we worked on character defects to change ourselves so that we didn't have to drink. It was then that she admitted she thought that I wasn't doing well (the first time we dated) because I was going to "so many meetings".


That's kind of a crackup. But that's also kind of what I get from people sometimes. "collective denial". If I go to meetings every night I'm pretty good, for the most part. It takes an hour and a half of my time, on the average- maybe a bit more (I actually wish the meetings were longer sometimes, or that we had speaker meetings before or something to stretch stuff out. When it's good it's great, when it's bad I'd like to shove a knitting needle in my eye.) weirdface

If I don't go- well...drinking takes more than an hour and a half a day. There's a six-pack or whatever after work- minimum. That's an hour. Then there's either more drinking or nodding off on the couch. Either way it's a waste of an evening. (I might write a bit but I can't really do that with any quality or consistancy while drinking. Hungover- yeah- pretty alright- but not while I'm drinking, not really.) Then there's my poor efficiency the next day- no way for me to accurately guage that.

When I'm hitting the meetings and work is all good I am pretty much at the top of my game. No Hangovers, a little water time at lunch (either paddleboarding or swimming, maybe a quick surf if there is any surf), either yardwork or housework or writing in my free time. I do tend to sleep way less sober. I'm up til 1:00 a.m. minimum, and up at 5 a.m. anyhow. Is that wierd?

__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1893
Date:
Permalink  
 

Wish you could have been a t the meeting I was at last night! The topic was rules.....The rules of AA....It was brought to our attention that they are suggestions and not rules. One guy said he tried the suggestion part and went back out eventually. Until he made the choice to apply the suggestions as "rules" to live by , he was quite unsuccessful with his sobriety. I liked how he said he liked doing things his own way throughout life and look where it got him. By changing everything, and for once following the rules, he now has 6 years in the program. Thats entirely his choice. I rather like, it is suggested...

Another guy said its always a good idea to bounce things off of someone else for their perspective. Had a bottle of h2o in front of him and explained how he could only see one side of it while the person on the other side had a totally different take on the matter. Simple thinking, but true..

I think to be successful in this program we need to look only at ourselves...Do we really want it? Do we really care what people say about the program? Are we happier now? Are good things happening to us? Are we keeping a job, house, family.....? Can we look in the mirror and like who we are.....? Are we making new friends and sharing the most intimate parts of ourselves with each other and actually growing from it? I know in my life, the people that really even matter are the ones who see a positive change in me and are happy to see it!!

When I first came in , I too worried about things like..."do I have to go back to that store and tell the guy I stole something....(or sex and defending my program) Old timer told me just concentrate on step one today and keep it simple!!! So yea, here I am...on step three!!!heehee
Lani





__________________
"We tend to forget that happiness doesn't come as a result of getting something we don't have, but rather of recognizing and appreciating what we do have. "


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 160
Date:
Permalink  
 

WEll put Lani!! You are awsome!!!! Love all your posts!
Love in the Fellowship of the Spirit,
Allison

__________________
Thank you for letting me share!


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 540
Date:
Permalink  
 

All I can say is, that anytime AA HASN'T worked for me, is when I wasn't doing something that is suggested by the steps. And boy, have I ever learned THAT one over and over.

Maybe if you just stated the old slogan, "It works if you work it, it won't if you don't", and went merrily on your way. If I get to where I am starting to get mad at everyone and everything again, I will probably not stay sober, so I try to keep anger to a minimum.

Joni

__________________

~~"It's hard to be hateful when you're grateful."~~



Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Date:
Permalink  
 

Rehabilitateaddicted people and help the society. 
Join the chat room application (link deleted)


Chad if you'd like to join in the dicussion of our group, you're more
than welcome.






-- Edited by StPeteDean at 08:47, 2009-01-31

__________________


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Date:
Permalink  
 

Listen, there is a huge difference between using the program of AA as a tool and using it as a crutch.  AA gave me what I need in my life to stay sober;  an awareness of God's strength in the face of my weakness. 

*  I need people I can be accountable to for my life, my actions, especially have at least one who knows me totally and I am honest with and who will call me on my bulls**t. 

* An understanding of the steps--and the meaning behind them. They're a guideline to what a healthy spiritual person should be doing.

* The empowering knowledge that I only control one thing in terms of my drinking--the decision not to take the next one.

* I will NOT stuff pain and reaching out to others is what I'm here for. Pain is to be used for growth---not for wallowing in. It is necessary to experience that pain. I will feel and embrace and live my pain and keep walking through it 'till it grows into something good. My "accountability" people will help me decide if I need outside help IF I don't recognise it--which I am usually able to do today because I have become a healthy part of the human race--not co-dependent on a room full of people who cry "get grateful" or "pity pot" everytime someone feels something. 

* Slogans are the most confusing, most misused part of AA (outside of some really sick people with alot of AA time being sponsors). They can be helpful, but they're mostly misused.  I remember having both  "Think, think, think"  and "Don't think, don't drink, and go to meetings" thrust at me many years ago as a newcomer and wondering which one is the key--think or don't think?

I also remember going to a meeting in Philadelphia in 1993 and hearing two old timers debate which was right "AA is my life" or "AA gave me a life". As a newcomer, The first was so true for me--AA was my life.  But 15+ years later, "AA gave me a life" rings much truer,as it should.

AA works--I have developed and grown. I am by no means perfect, but FROM CONSTANT AND DILIGENT AND CONTINUED PRACTICE I have the tools I need to live a healthy whole life without alcohol. This is dependent on my continued spiritual health which is maintained by the principles of of this program-- they are also the principles of many religions...Part of my life is a natural desire to compassionately help other suffering people that God puts in my path. I keep close with my friends and family--really they're all family--some of whom are alcoholic, some not.

Here's the shocker--what you all will find blasphemy: I WILL NOT DRINK just because I stopped going to meetings--because the meetings are not a magic potion or wand. CHANGE of mind and heart and body and soul and surrender God with hourly action, ACCOUNTIBILIY to and helping other people--that's what happy people have.

I experienced two straws that quietly and gently broke my camel's back. Several years in to my recovery our family lost everthing we had in a fire. We were on vacation at the time and no one was harmed in the slightest. It happened about 8 months past 9/11. We were notified by telephone and talking with the insurance company--assuming there was some little scraps left--and found out it was all cinders, but everything covered by insurance. As my (nonalcoholic) husband held the phone and delivered this news to me and said,

"Huh. A fire while we're on vacation and everything we own is gone. What are the chances?"

We looked deeply into each others eyes and burst out laughing. You see, after 9/11 it was just funny and bizarre. We were completely physically and emotionally unscathed, just possesionless. I shed two tears for my photos and one for my wedding dress, went back to laughing, and picked up life from there.

After sharing in a meeting how my perspective had changed so much in recovery that this event seemed like a blip on the radar, I was told I was in denial, shock, that the sadness and anger would come out in a few months and I would be in danger of drinking. Then one long timer chimed in "I'm as sick as the day I walked in here"

Well I'm not. And if I had been in a program for 25 plus years and was as sick as the day I came in--well that's sad. Its using AA as a crutch, not as a means of growth. A healthy relationship means interdependence, not dependence. Any program, religion, idea, meant to keep you dependent for life is a cult.

I do not believe the founders of AA meant for people to live in fear and condemnation of certain drinking if one stopped attending meetings. I don't think they wanted it to be a cult. I think it they meant to spread the news of the way they triumphed over alcoholism; they wanted to share the path and way that brought them peace. Hell, they didn't even have meeting in the beginning. "A lifelong program" means "practicing these principles in all our affairs" and "holding out your hand" to other suffering people.

I don't think AA means us clinging ever dependently to meetings like a life preserver. I think we're supposed to learn how to swim....and eventually fly.
 
I am not a AA basher, but I no longer blindly drink whatever kool-aid is handed  to me.
The PROGRAM and PRINCIPLES of AA work. How far you want to grow is up to you.

Happiness & peace & sobriety to you all.




__________________


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Date:
Permalink  
 

Greetings fellow travelers

Im not anti AA however i belive i see it in the light of recovery.  I am recovered, clean, sober, nicotine free for over 18 years.   I am a member of several 12 step fellowships including AA.  I consider that i am a dessenting member who sure doesnt belive that the steps or the BB are without fault.  I am always more than willing to discuss by e mail or in person recovery.  Thanks  albuqeddie@gmail.com


__________________
edward h calhoun


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 490
Date:
Permalink  
 

Statistics can be made to say about anything.  If one in 25 people who go to a first AA meeting stay sober, does that mean AA is a failure?  The people that stayed sober don't think so. 

I'll bet maybe only one in 1000 people who try out to be astronauts ever fly in space.  Does that mean the space program is a failure?

If 25 million people have been to an AA meeting with a desire to stop drinking or a court order related to their drinking exploits, and 24 million eventually drank again, whether the same day or after some years, it still means one million got sober who wouldn't have otherwise.

I didn't get sober because I'm so smart.  Odds are against alcoholics, period - even the smart ones.  Especially the smart ones... LOL.  I got lucky, if you just look at the stats.  I hit the magic four percent, the 1 in 25.  I can't tell you why, I can only tell you what I did.  I can't tell you if AA will get you sober, I can only tell you it got me sober.  I will not defend AA against those who say it doesn't work, it's a cult, etc.  I don't speak for AA, only for myself.  And AA doesn't need my rhetorical defense.  I need AA, it doesn't need me - and all I can give back is to share my own experience and pass it on.  There's no money to be made, and I suspect that's the #1 reason behind the anti-AA rhetoric. 

I have my personal opinion of some of the more notable AA critics out there, especially those obviously in it for the money.  But that's my opinion, not AA's.  Our 10th tradition states:

Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

What critics have to say about AA is an outside issue.  I remember the feeling of relief that I felt when I realized this.   While AA has no official opinion on any outside issue, its individual members certainly can and do, and you'll hear them.  And AA goes on.  I don't think the "AA doesn't work" or the "AA is a cult" people do any more harm than someone saying, "Aw come on, have a beer - just for old time's sake".  Probably less.  The choice is still ours.

Barisax

__________________


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Date:
Permalink  
 

Self righteous pricks like you have made AA spiritually bankrupt even more so than it was to start off with.

Don't want what you've got Staying sober without the miserable asinine program or award winning personalities 



__________________
Jaspar Lamar Crab


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Date:
Permalink  
 

I am one of those people that has a negative opinion of AA. And the 12 steps which were not written by Bill Wilson or Dr. Bob, are taken from The Oxford Group whose leader was Frank Buchman. It was this group that was instrumental in Wilson getting sober. The Oxford Group was a cult religion of the early 20th century and thus Bill Wilson using the same recruiting tools as The Oxford Group would qualify as a cult. Look up the definition of a cult, and you will see the 12 steps fall into this category perfectly. True AA doesn't ask you to sell all your possessions and move into a compound, but neither do a lot of a lot of other cults. There a varying degrees of cult activity.

 I really like what you said about the spiritual "Amway" and the brainwashing aspect, because that is "exactly" what AA is. AA has spawned a number of other 12 step groups like Narcotics Anonymous , Gamblers Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous and just about anything else you can think of. I have heard many, many times in meetings ( was required to go for two years as a punishment for a DUI conviction) that everyone in the world, regardless on any addiction, should adopt and abide by this 12 step regimen .AA and any of the other spinoffs, such as NA etc. have absolutely nothing to do with alcohol, drugs, gambling or such. AA is about nothing but keeping AA going and recruiting new members. Except for step one and 12 alcohol is not even mentioned. The other 10 steps are about turning your life over to a God or some other fictional being, or if that doesn't work, how about a doorknob or other object. How can a doorknob restore anybody to sanity?

  As far as former AA members ( either forced by the courts, or who tried it on their own) being the most vehement of AA, that only makes sense. Somebody that has never experienced an AA meeting would have nothing to gauge a dislike or like of the program against. And as far as leaving AA because the program failed them, remember AA fails almost all who try it. Read the statistics including AA's own admission that is has a miserable success rate.

Most people who quit drinking or drugging do so on their own when they just decide that it either ruining their life or making it miserable. Somewhere around 80% of people who have quit have done so with no help from treatment facilities, AA or any other form of rehabilitation.

Personally, because of being court ordered into treatment (which I have completed) I have done extensive research on the whole subject of alcoholism including treatment, AA and other forms of sobriety such as Rational Recovery, Smart, Lifering etc. The thing is, they all have the same success rate of around 5%, which when compared to people who succeed by quitting on their own actually makes treatment and AA worse than never having attended.

So when you say people condemn a program they know nothing about, I'd think again. It is you who is blindly following a program that you know nothing about. Do your research and find out what is really being said and what is really going on in those hallowed rooms. You are in for a rude awakening.

AA didn't get you sober and is not keeping you sober. "You did".



__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1570
Date:
Permalink  
 

Greetings, GJ. Welcome to this forum.

You said a lot in your post. Let me comment on just one for now. With regard to the authorship of the 12 Steps of AA, you say that ole Bill W. did not write them. Do you have a cite for your contention? I've read a lot of AA history, including some Oxford Group history and have never seen that reported.

It would be big news if you are right about that. 

 



__________________

First, deal with the things that might kill you.

 



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 546
Date:
Permalink  
 

I only say "Works for ME"

and sometimes when people say AA did not work for them .

I ask em if they worked AA.

I also say "yes AA is Simple , but simple does not allways say it is going to be Easy"



__________________

Rick.

@ 37 I was too young & good looking to be an alkie.

still too young , still got th good looks. still n alkie.



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 477
Date:
Permalink  
 

So, you were forced by the courts to attend AA. Or, maybe, they gave you a choice, and you could have went to jail instead. Either way, the courts were not going to let you off your DUI Scott-free. (I don't know who Scott is). So, you chose AA meetings, and probably probation and maybe some community service and fines, instead of jail.

Now that you know how bad AA meetings are, next time, just choose jail. Usually, for the second offense, it would be 3 months in jail. You're better off doing that, cause when you take the other offer, youre on probation for 2 years, and a lot of people violate their probation, and end up having to go to jail anyway. And you don't have to worry about going to AA meetings. If I were you, next time, I would just do the jail time. It's actually easier. 

Hopefully, you don't drink and drive again, so you won't have to make that choice. And, instead of coming here, and telling everybody how much AA sucks, just live and let live, and chalk it up as a learning experience. It's all over now, bro. You never have to go to another AA meeting again. Now, at least you know you know you don't like AA. But, WE didn't order you to attend AA meetings, so why you gotta come here and be all mad at us? Seems like you should be mad at the courts, instead. Maybe write them a letter. Or go on their forum. 



__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 12357
Date:
Permalink  
 

This is what came to mind when I read how this got re-posted ... :


Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Remember that we deal with alcohol-cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.


When asked to read this at a meeting, I always do so with as much passion and conviction as I possibly can(to some in the group 'rolling' their eyes) ... because if someone just mumbles through it for the thousandth time and shows very little enthusiasm, the new-comers may start to feel this is something they must endure rather than getting excited to have found a solution to there problems ... a way out ...

Being or sounding 'negative' about our program serves only to increase the failure rate talked about in this thread posting ...and may very well cost someone their life ... what a shame ... it's almost 'criminal', in my book ...

I mean, if a person is walking around with a pair of 'blinders' on and if someone offered to pull the blinders off so you could see the light, wouldn't YOU jump at that chance???, to see again??? ...


just some thoughts of an old drunk,
God Bless,
Pappy



__________________

'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'



Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 477
Date:
Permalink  
 

I'll be the chaperone. 



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 477
Date:
Permalink  
 

Yer right, Pappy, about reading that with conviction. It makes all the difference.



__________________


MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 1570
Date:
Permalink  
 

hopefulone wrote:

Wow! You dug a 2007 post? Tipsy would be proud.
Thanks for sharing and hope you feel better since doing so.


There are a lot of threads and posts from bygone days here at MIP that are pertinent to us today. Luckily, the discussion forum structure facilitates reading them, learning from them, and continuing the conversation. The year of the OP, 2007, isn't particularly important regarding the instant thread. Everything is still the same.



__________________

First, deal with the things that might kill you.

 



MIP Old Timer

Status: Offline
Posts: 6464
Date:
Permalink  
 

mega historic bump! lol

__________________

 Gratitude = Happiness!





Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.