I have decided to stop drinking, still haven't decided if I am alcoholic and to be honest it doesn't really bother me if I am or not, if I am, then it's not so bad as I'm a happy drinker and it doesn't effect my work or bill paying and I don't drink daily or in the house or become violent etc. However, at least every two weeks I will go on a bender at the weekend, I love it, and have a great time, spend a bit too much but what can you do. the problem is my wife is Italian and I am Irish and if anybody knows these two cultures they will know that for Italians being drunk is totally unacceptable were as for the Irish everyone from the president to the road sweepers enjoy getting drunk at the weekend. So my lifestyle upsets her alot, and as I love her very much I am willing to give it up. But it's not that easy, but then everyone I have asked could they give it up has said no, does that make everyone I know an alcoholic, don't think so. So I'm looking for help. And to finally get to the topic....... I find that the AA is full of self rightgeous religeous extremists which, to be honest goes totally against my grain. I recognise the great work they do and there is a proven track record, but were do people like me, who don't want to hear a patronising daily religeous comment every morning go for help to quit alcohol. I hope my comments don't offend as they are not intended that way, but If these discussions are anything then they must be truthful. So, any suggestions?
Religeous extremists? Yup...there are a few..:) and it kept this kid away from AA for a long time...however...thats thats their thing...and not mine...
AA is suppossed to be spirtitual...and what each of us uses as an outside Higher Power..is a personal thing...
I used nothing more then..GOD...Good orderly direction...and the fellowship, for a long time..
AA as a whole...and put very simply...is a bunch of drunks..(including binge drinkers)...that help each other stay sober, one day at a time.tried staying sober on my own...didnt work.....Everything in the program is suggested...one takes what they need to...and leaves the rest...
Try a few meetings and let us know what you think eh...:)
Welcome to MIP
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"LOVE" devoid of self-gratification, is in essence, the will, to the greatest good...of another.
I have decided to stop drinking, still haven't decided if I am alcoholic and to be honest it doesn't really bother me if I am or not, if I am, then it's not so bad as I'm a happy drinker and it doesn't effect my work or bill paying and I don't drink daily or in the house or become violent etc. However, at least every two weeks I will go on a bender at the weekend, I love it, and have a great time, spend a bit too much but what can you do. the problem is my wife is Italian and I am Irish and if anybody knows these two cultures they will know that for Italians being drunk is totally unacceptable were as for the Irish everyone from the president to the road sweepers enjoy getting drunk at the weekend. So my lifestyle upsets her alot, and as I love her very much I am willing to give it up. But it's not that easy, but then everyone I have asked could they give it up has said no, does that make everyone I know an alcoholic, don't think so. So I'm looking for help. And to finally get to the topic....... I find that the AA is full of self rightgeous religeous extremists which, to be honest goes totally against my grain. I recognise the great work they do and there is a proven track record, but were do people like me, who don't want to hear a patronising daily religeous comment every morning go for help to quit alcohol. I hope my comments don't offend as they are not intended that way, but If these discussions are anything then they must be truthful. So, any suggestions?
Hello FP,
There are a lot of successful members of AA that don't believe in God, and it's not an issue with them. The majority seem to be agnostics when they join. If you really want to stop drinking, don't let the spirituality (not religion) of the program keep you from giving AA a try. The program works and it's way easier then going thru a rehab, which is another thing you could look into lol.
In your comments, it doesn't sound like you think that you have a drinking problem, just a wife that does. That's how most of us got here. The wife, the boss, or maybe the judge thought we had a drinking problem, so we came for them. You'll be in good company. Aslo being 75% Irish myself I can say that we are well represented here and that if you stay here long enough, you'll run across many old friends and probably some family members.
We're just a big happy family of people just like the ones the you enjoying drinking with except we probably smell a little better, are jokes are funnier, and you don't have to buy us drinks.
Hi there, just putting in my $0.02 to echo what's already been said and a bit of my own -- yeah there are religious extremists in AA, there are also religious extremists at my job, and when I go to Jimmy Johns for a tasty roast beef sandwich, the guy making it may be a religious extremist too... but it's a damn good sandwich. I bought eggs at Aldi for $0.69 that had a bible verse printed on the inside of the lid (true!) but they were still just eggs, and I'm still not religious. You're going to go to AA meetings and usually the religious extremists are the people who are loudest about making sure everyone else knows who their higher power is, but then you have people like my sponsor who has 32 years sobriety and still calls her higher power "H.P." (initials for higher power) There isn't any mention of religion in the 12 steps, just a power greater than yourself. And it could be The Stay Puft Marshmallow man for all it matters to me as long as it keeps you sober.
You don't have to say (or think) that you are an alcoholic to come to an AA meeting. There are "open" meetings, which means that they are open to all people. Many people come to try to understand others, to find out if they are alcoholics, or even to help with papers they are writing for school. Also, the only requirement for "membership" in AA is a desire to stop drinking. I think you will find that if you can quit on your own you will most likely not need any outside help (AA or otherwise), but if you cannot we are always here.
I had no idea that I could not quit on my own until I tried to. It was much harder than I thought. In the end I found that I couldn't quit for good all by myself. It took me a year to realize that I needed help. I also avoided AA because it seemed religious, the people seemed weird, and it just seemed extreme about abstinence, etc. But I was open-minded, and went to meetings here and there as I tried to quit drinking (over and over again). I learned that there are self-righteous folks, religious people, and just downright annoying idiots in AA. But I also learned that there were level-headed, intelligent, open-minded, and fun people there, too. It's a pretty accurate cross-section of wherever you live. And I learned that at times I was the one with a closed mind.
I think it's cool that you are responsive to your wife. I'm sure you'll learn something in the process. I really do hope that you are not an alcoholic and are able to quit on your own. But if you find that you cannot quit on your own, then know that this can work for you, too.
I've met very few, what i would call religious extremist in AA. now your next comment could very well be but everyone talks about a "higher power" . If a person decides they are an alcoholic AA believes that in order to get better they have to " turn their will and life over to the care of god [AS THEY UNDERSTAND HIM] " over the years this word god has come to mean higher power all it is really saying is that we have to let someone else make ALL of our desicions concerning alcohol we can't make them on our own. For most people I've met hammer out their own view of god in time and 99% of the time it doesn't fit any organized view of religion as for me and most people who are in the begining of sobriety I think the fellowship of AA is our higher power. I was at the end of my rope didn't want to live didn't want to die. I want o change i wanted to quit drinking but i had tried and failed several times before i came to AA . So I came to AA and I didn't stay sober because god wanted me to i stayed sober because a bunch of old recovering drunks told me i my life would change if I followed their path.
Good luck and take care
Bryan
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Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. Romans 8:6 , The Message
At my AA if someone is a religious extremist they've kept it pretty low key. I think maybe we've all been too busy being alcohol extremists and there just isn't that much room for any more extremism. But we are all obsessive compulsive- I'm convinced of that- so maybe we have the capacity if we really let loose.
I for one find that I hear way more about god and religion from various athiests trying to constantly establish their non-religious position than from Christians (I assume that's who you're referring to. Even here in Hawaii we don't have a ton of Buddhists and Taoists and Muslims, though I suppose in a city like L.A. or New York City there probably is.) I too have a hard time with my spirituality and AA- I guess I could be called an agnostic or a non-practicing Buddhist- I dunno. Don't really sweat it too much anymore. I just kind of "blurred my ears" for the god stuff and everything else has come together pretty okay.
Nope- I'm Irish-American (and Scottish and a wee bit Swedish) also and have thought long and hard about cultural and genetic pre-disposition to alcohol. But in the end it is what it is, and it's today- not the 1000 years leading up to today- that we have to deal with and basically it's simple- it's just alcoholism. A tough nut to crack but I think the eaiest way to do it is AA.
Don't let your fears stand in the way of your dreams. Some Dead Guy.
Hello everyone, and thanks for all your comments, which were, surprisingly all upbeat and encouraging. i'm just back in from work and my email is hopping with all your remarks. I'm glad to hear that your all not nuts in the AA, and I'm sure I'm using my prejudice as an excuse not to go. I maybe should have mentioned that I am not in fact an atheist, I am a christian but only in the sense that god came to me via jesus, it could just as well have been through mohammed, buddha, thor or charlie bleedin chaplin, don't really matter. So I am trying to avoid any organisation that would have a slant towards any particular faith. But as has been stated in your comments a higher power (the missus) or no power at all seems just ok with me. Never did like the idea of conditional help. i have tried to stop maybe 3 times in the last year, before that I wouldn't have dreamt I was an alco, but as I said it aint easy, an people who invented 'just say no' have never lived. Thanks again for all your comments, I'll keep you informed on my progress, if indeed you are at all interested. All the best, FP.
I'm glad to hear that your all not nuts in the AA,
I sometimes wonder.... Perhaps we're not the precise variety of nuts you previously thought.
While I made breakfast and straightened up the house before work this morning I was thinking about your posts and the various responses and my response and I got to thinking back to when I first was thinking about going to some meetings. Thinking of our meetings here in particular, I think a lot of new people have a hard time with some of the soft talk/huggy/fuzzy puppies and kittens stuff that I now just take as a matter of course. It's tough (for someone like me) to go out into a group that is already somewhat established and be the newcomer, and then because there's a variety of people there's this variety of cultures that you deal with, and some of them are very foreign to a guy like me. Anyhow- I think I construed a lot of the stuff I didn't understand as the "god" part and I come to find that everyone pretty much- for the most part- keeps their god stuff to themselves, and there's just an odd reference here and there to it and the standard god references in the Steps and traditions, but that's pretty vague. Over time it kind of dawned on me that I was being really narrow minded (not saying that you are, but that people in general seeing something that they find a little overwhelming and new and maybe scary will tend to see things through their own paradigm or frame of reference or whatever) and that these people were just dealing with their "stuff" how they could, and I could deal with my stuff the way I am able and we coexist independantly. But over time we kind of overlap and I am a little bit part of their soft and fuzzy hugs and all that and they are a little part of my jaded and cynical "tough guy" way of dealing with stuff, and actually it gives me a little balance.
My stepmom is a soft and Fuzzy bunnies and kittens AAer. When she gets real serious about stuff she talks in a therapist voice. So as not to agitate the lunatic in me. ;)
Anyhow- I hope that makes some sense. At this point I don't for a second regret getting sober. I used to think I'd miss some of it- a beer at sunset or the Irish pub trip and all that- but once it's no good, it's never really any good again, IMHO. I discovered my problem (or rediscovered, I guess) and got sober and I fell off the wagon a few times but after I admittedthe alcohol was screwing me up it never was that ideallic, carefree boozing that it had been before.
And it's really nice waking up every day without a hangover and driving home at whatever time knowing I haven't got to worry about the cops. That kinda stuff is priceless.
When I first started with AA, I just knew that the God side of things would be a major stumbling point for me. I was born into a Christian family, but I just wasn't (and am still not) ready to have a 'church-defined' God in my life.
It was then explained to me that AA is a spiritual program and not a religious one. For a long time, I used the acronym GOD meaning Group Of Drunks and that worked for me. I've heard people say that they think of a loved one who isn't with them anymore. Or, GOD meaning Good Orderly Direction. Whatever works for anyone, then fine.
And, the joy of AA is that you can take the bits you like, or that apply to you, and leave the rest. It's only a suggested program of recovery.
I do hope that you'll keep posting and letting us know how things are going for you.
Take care,
Carol
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Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr. Seuss
I felt the same as you do ..wen i got here....sombody once told me to try and be openminded....i have been sober for some time now ...and Religion had nothing to do with it .
''Lack of power was our Dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live'' If i might make a suggestion ..try diferent meetings ..they have Big Book meetings....12x12 step and tradition meeting...speaker disscusion ....an just plain speaker,,were the speaker speaks the whole meeting .
Read the BIG BOOK! Especially the first 164 pages, but do it with a Sponsor.
I am going to be Truthful because I am Honest today. I was a liar, a cheat and a theif when I came into A.A. 13 1/2 years ago I was an everyday alcoholic that used cocaine as my lift when I got drunk. I did this for 28 years off and on. Starting at 13 years old ending my careeer at 38 years old.
I was also a victim of sexual, physical, mental, spiritual abuse at 5, then again at 7, 13, 14 and it proceeded my life until I stopped drinking.
We also work through issues of abuse in another room here.
The reason I first came into A.A. wasn't because I wanted to. It was because for the 4 months I stayed SOBER alone I suffered with SEIZURES, NO GOD, NO HUMAN COMPANIONSHIP except being a single Mother that was drinking. Plus making a living in a sinful manner plus holding a job. I needed HELP!
My first meetings were loaded with people talking about GOD, Jesus, and things I didn't understand or accept at first. I would shake, rattle and role during each meeting. Accused by some of even being loadaed because of my ramblings and illness.
The withdrawals from all of the substances were almost unbearable. I then withdrew from cigarettes 3 months into the game. The reason I quit all of them, is they worked together. Alcohol, drugs and cigarettes. Plus I was ill very ill.
After working all 12-Steps of Recovery with a SPonsor I had that Spiritual Awakening that is talked about. GOd entered into my life. He took hold of me and LOVED me more than I DID. HE showed me that I was FORGIVEN for ALL MY SINS. Which by the way were many, many ,many.
I was married after the 1rst year of SObriety to a wonderful man.
I have been healed on the ALTER of the CHurch from SEIZURES. I have been baptized in water and in THe HOLy SPIRIT, accepting Jesus as Lord of my Life. I am a Born Again Christian.
What that means is that I am FORGIVEN and I am a NEW CREATION I have life eternally with GOd the Father.
If you find that I am what you want to call a Religious extremist. That is your right. Today I am Sober, happy joyous and Free.
I have been Blessed enough by God to have served in Prison Ministry for 3 years. Walking through many trials and hardships of my own in Sobriety that only by GODs Grace I could have stayed Sober through.
My TRUST and dependence is on GOD first. Where he leads I'll go. If that is A.A. then I go there. I Love to share my Story and I Love to HEAR others that share there's.
Hmmmm... The "God Thing"... All I need to realize is that I am not the most powerfull force in the universe... That there may be something stronger and bigger. (That would be a "higher power" BTW). If one wants to get sober bad enough, he'll pray to a rock in the beginning. There is alot of talk about God in some groups, but we do not push christianity, mormanism, buhdism or any other religion. Most folks use "God" because the word describes what they feel would be a great force in their lives.
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My warranty on tomorrow has run out. My guarantee on the past is void. Nothing is going my way... and I like it like that.
To Pam P, Im happy for you and impressesd that you managed to get through an horrific ordeal and come out the other side with your sanity and dignity intact, and if your god helped all the better. I think you missed my point though. I wouldn't call you a religeous extremist, unless you decided that I must accept that your god was the only god and that if i didn't conform to this then i could (literally) go to hell. But it seems to me from reading all the comments the general concensus is that our faith and our spiritual guide is a very personal thing and all are permitted to exist side by side at AA. Correct me if Im wrong. Thanks for your comments, all have helped me gain a better understanding of what you are about. FP
"our faith and our spiritual guide is a very personal thing and all are permitted to exist side by side at AA. Correct me if Im wrong."
No youre not wrong Friend....Youre right on!!
Ive seen a lot of potential recovery...come on to this board over the last few years....and Religeous comments re: Posts....born again Christians and Bible thumpers.. have driven them away....
Theres no need for it...
And I personally....am pissed right off with it...and I shall also honestly share....
That...I'm not the only one...
The next post that I see...as a moderator...having anything to do with Religion? The post will be removed...
Keep it off the board!!
__________________
"LOVE" devoid of self-gratification, is in essence, the will, to the greatest good...of another.
"our faith and our spiritual guide is a very personal thing and all are permitted to exist side by side at AA. Correct me if Im wrong."
No youre not wrong Friend....Youre right on!!
Ive seen a lot of potential recovery...come on to this board over the last few years....and Religeous comments re: Posts....born again Christians and Bible thumpers.. have driven them away....
Theres no need for it...
And I personally....am pissed right off with it...and I shall also honestly share....
That...I'm not the only one...
The next post that I see...as a moderator...having anything to do with Religion? The post will be removed...
Keep it off the board!!
+1 that's gotta be the number one turnoff for newcomers.
that's gotta be the number one turnoff for newcomers.
I got an email forwarded from a friend about the declining success of AA and how it was because of this and that and the next thing, and y'know- that was one of the first things that popped into my head.
that's gotta be the number one turnoff for newcomers.
I got an email forwarded from a friend about the declining success of AA and how it was because of this and that and the next thing, and y'know- that was one of the first things that popped into my head.
It's going to become more and more of an issue as belief in God is on the decline. 30 years ago a person would be weary about admitting that they didn't believe it God because of the stigma. Now talking about God, spirituality, or religion is a touchy subject. Someone will tell me about a close call that they survived and out of reflex I'll say "God was looking out for you" and half the time the person's eyes will glaze over or a scornful look developes on one side of their face. All I can say, is that I'm glad I won't be here more than another 40 years or so. In the mean time I'm headin' for the hills of NC where the "God fearing" people can still be found. I'll handle snakes if I have to
I Love what the 12-Steps do when applied properly, sponsorship, service, A.A. We all make it possible by working together. Not opposing each other.
So here is what the Co-Founder Bill W. has to say in a short verse I would like to share.
Foreward to the Second Edition
From Bills Story co founder of A.A. page 13.
At the Hospital I was seperated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens. There I humbly offered myself to GOD, as I then understood him, to do with me as he would. I placed myself unreservedly under his care and His direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; without him Iwas lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to have my NEw-Found FRIEND take them away, root and branch. I have not had a single drink since.
This is still Bill W. speaking.
My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a New Relationship with My Creator; that I would have the elements of a way of living which answered all my problems. Beleif in the power Of GOD, plus the willingness, honesty and humility to establish and maintain the new order of things, were the essential requirements. Simple but not easy; a price had to be paid. It meant destruction of Self-Centeredness. I must turn in all things to the FATHER of LIGHTS who presides over us all.
There is a Solution Big Book Page 28
We think it no concern of ours what religious bodies our members identify themselves as individuals. This should be an entirely personal affair which each one decides for himself in the light of past associations, or his present choice. Not all of us join Religious bodies, but most of us favor such memberships.
Page 20
Our very lives, as ex problem drinkers depend on our constant thought of others and how we may serve them.
I hope that this brings you the joy that it brings me.
Twas a different time. That's as specific a response as I'm going to offer as I know where these conversations inevitably end up. Conversations about politics and religion tend to eventually bring out the worst in the average person.
I'm not terribly concerned with the spirituality of others as I believe spirituality in large part comes from within you. Books and religious scholars lend us insight that helps us discover our own spirituality, but in the end I think it's a lot like getting sober- you can read all the books you want and people around you can want to help you a ton but in the end it's something that is entirely up to you.
I know some absolutely fantastic people from nearly every faith- and certainly a bunch of great people from the "big five". I think most people need some spirituality in one form or another, and that's a beautiful thing. I'm a big fan of stuff foreign to me and having been brought up in a household that wasn't terribly religious, it's all very cool to me. I think the golden rule pretty much across the board is that you shouldn't hurt others. I work on that every day.
I really like Abraham Lincoln's quote:
When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.
I believe the emphasis here is "God as we understand Him", and that is such an individual thing. If I were to want to learn or hear about religion, I would go to a church. When I choose to practice my spirituality I gather with like-minded women. When I want to work with the tools we've been given in AA, I go to meetings and make myself available to new-comers. There are so many of us, and as many of us as there are you will find a diverse belief system. That is the beauty of the program--we are not limited to the confines of a book with a leather cover. Brahma, Jehovah, Christ, Kuan Yin or the Universe--the important part is the relationship you develope with your Higher Power of choice. "God" speaks to each of us differently. You find peace in your practice, someone else may find peace and their Truth in the harmony of nature, others in the rhythm of life. The list is infinite and individual. And if left for people to practice in their truth, it will continue to be successful. If I were to feel I was being pressured into a single concept, I'd feel as inslaved to that as I did to substances. I, personally, sobered up for freedom. This has worked for me for over 24 years. And something else will work for someone else. We just keep sharing our ES and H here, and find our common denominators. The only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. To stay focused on the progress of our spiritual growth, we help others. Service. There doesn't need to be a name on the road to make it a real road. The journey will be what it's going to be. Be blessed, Chris
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"Never argue with an idiot... They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience..."
I obviously hit a nerve, ok, got the message, we can move on now, you are all right if it done the job for you, and it's clear that there are some who are into the jesus thing and some who are not and there doesn't seem to be conflict or power battles going on, so im happy. Thanks all again, but please don't get into a religeous storm on my behalf. Keep religeon and politics for the pub (just kiddin). FP
This is an interesting and illuminating discussion about some important issues in AA recovery. I find that I really appreciate Wren's comprehensive and open-minded post the most. Dean's second post expresses a pretty pragmatic outlook. It's probably right.
"our faith and our spiritual guide is a very personal thing and all are permitted to exist side by side at AA. Correct me if Im wrong."
No youre not wrong Friend....Youre right on!!
Ive seen a lot of potential recovery...come on to this board over the last few years....and Religeous comments re: Posts....born again Christians and Bible thumpers.. have driven them away....
Theres no need for it...
And I personally....am pissed right off with it...and I shall also honestly share....
That...I'm not the only one...
The next post that I see...as a moderator...having anything to do with Religion? The post will be removed...
Keep it off the board!!
Oh, that's really practicing the principles of AA.
Another post dug up from 2007. Wow! Okay, guess the board is slow... and this is a good lesson in "tolerance" for me.
If someone's opinion "drove away" an alcoholic whether new in recovery or an old timer it is not the fault of the poster(s). That's their ego--not the poster(s). I have blamed others and given them more power than they actually have. My ego has caused me to quit meetings, quit service positions, not pray enough and even drink again. I have a lot to learn. One of the most important things I am trying to get through this thick skull of mine is that I will never find anyone who is going to agree with me on 100% of everything. It's impossible! And that's okay. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. Their beliefs have nothing to do with me. Nor should my beliefs have anything to do with them. If I am truly where I should be (and I admit--I am not--however, am working on it...)I should have enough tolerance and be able to handle opinions which differ from mine without getting my panties in a bunch. (And I have to tell you, I am getting a little tired from pulling them out from where the sun doesn't shine.)
Tolerance: "the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with."
https://www.google.com/#q=tolerance+definition
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During nine years in AA, I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal not only maintain sobriety but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Tolerance expresses itself in a variety of ways: in kindness and consideration toward the man or woman who is just beginning the march along the spiritual path; in the understanding of those who perhaps have been less fortunate in education advantages; and in sympathy toward those whose religious ideas may seem to be at great variance with our own.
I am reminded in this connection of the picture of a hub with its radiating spokes. We all start at the outer circumference and approach our destination by one of many routes. To say that one spoke is much better than all the other spokes is true only in the sense of its being best suited to you as an individual. Human nature is such that without some degree of tolerance, each one of us might be inclined to believe that we have found the best or perhaps the shortest spoke. Without some tolerance, we might tend to become a bit smug or superior - which, of course, is not helpful to the person we are trying to help and may be quite painful or obnoxious to others. No one of us wishes to do anything that might act as a deterrent to the advancement of another - and a patronizing attitude can readily slow up this process.
Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words, it often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important - is, in fact, a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual.
These, then, are a few of the reasons why an attempt to acquire tolerance should be made by each one of us.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aatolerance.html
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BB p. 83 -- "Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love. The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. Unless ones family expresses a desire to live upon spiritual principles we think we ought not to urge them. We should not talk incessantly to them about spiritual matters. They will change in time. Our behavior will convince them more than our words."
